Air Powered Car + It's Cheap!
January 21st, 2005 | Filed under: Fabrication Tech, Products | 146 Comments »
MDI, after 10 years of R + D on pollution free vehicles, they have come up with the Mini Cat. The Mini Cat runs on compressed air and emits air. It is also in every way less expensive than your average car. Let’s hope the oil tycoons don’t find a way to wipe out this great invention.
via treehugger
I have to love that mdi air car. Still, it is small. I can’t stand the thought of a crash. And, when will they sell them in the US. You’re doing a great job getting the word out. Thank you Judi Houghton
How do we get one? I believe that air is the answer, at least until we can have personal air-powered flying vehicles and get rid of all the roads, which are also such a destruction. The petroleum fuel situation is just pathetic, and I am tired of being a victim of it and other’s greed.
This car is a great idea especially since anyone can buy an air pump for $100. Professional refuelling systems aren’t too expensive from a business stand point and will continue to go down. This allows for a much less expensive and quicker infrastucture than hydrogen. The size is a fantastic option as a second car. I hope they sell like crazy making used models even more affordable. Still even though its a proven technology the major car companies haven’t supported it. They are too connected to the oil interests. I would not be surprised if the large oil interests in this country tried to kill it. America should be at the forfront of such innovation not standing in its way. That’s one reason why this country is loosing respect through out the world. Too many powerful interests are trying to kill the American dream.
I’ve known about the air car for 4 years, yet I’ve never seen one article written nor heard one talk show mentioning it. I think there is a conspiracy of silence to squelch any information getting out about the air car in the U.S. I’m so frustrated I could scream. Why isn’t word getting out on all the television, radio, newspaper, websites, etc.? Why isn’t the president holding news conferences and ordering all major metropolitan area governments to use the air car in their vehicle fleets? Why isn’t the word getting out?
I suspect that the amount of energy required to compress air may figure into the overall expense? A friend has a 40’s vintage compressor feeding a bank of 6000 psi storage tanks in a “hut” for a paintball field. I know there are costs associated with compressing air, too.
I haven’t done the math, but I would suspect that is a drawback.
Just saw this car mentioned last night on the Science Channel and came up with this link through Google. The site: http://www.theaircar.com doesn’t load from where I’m sitting. I’m hoping it will work and that this technology is feasable, too.
Peace.
How to get this thing into production is the problem. With the oil companies in the back pockets of the auto companies and the federal government being lobbied heavily by both oil and auto manufacturing interests, can this engine become a reality. Not unless something can be done to panic the public such as say $3.00 a gallon gas…oops…already happened. Can the annual university solar powered competition being expanded to include air power? See: http://www.engin.umich.edu/solarcar/
Why not ask Mr. Gates for some investment He’s got too much money to care about the oil business. When, or if the car comes out I’ll be first in the line to buy one.
Mr. Simon spoke of a $100.00 pump. This ‘engine’ works at 300 bars. That’s equal to over 4,300 psi. Car tires are at 32-40 psi. My $300.00 home compressor will ‘only’ put out about 150 psi. This makes for the real problem….it takes a hugh pump to produce this kind of pressure. That relates to a hugh expense for someone.
The home owner won’t have the money and/or space to accomadate this piece of machinery. (If you moved, it would double your expense to have it moved..and what if you lived in an appartment?) I think it’s a good idea (air cars), but there’s a lot more to it than most people think.
I want to join the list of supporters of this technology. I can’t imagine an air compressor that costs more than an underground gas storage tank, or a pipeline. Think of the ways that this kind of thing could change the world.
Think of all the applications. I wish Mdi would go public in the U.S. I would buy a car, some stock or just a donation if they had a link. We need this.
Tell everyone you know.
The pump is onboard the car. When you get the car in your garage you connect to your electricity supply and it takes 3-4 hours to recgarge the tanks. Got that from the homepage http://www.theaircar.com/
I think this car is a terrific idea. Also, if you combined this with fitting solar panels in your home to generate electricity which can be sold into the grid (during the day) then you could buy it back at night when recharging your car…a free ride!
A compressor that produces over 4000psi does not need to be large. That’s likely why it takes four hours to charge the air tanks. 4000 psi is developed in stages, with each stage having a smaller and smaller piston. I definitely think that, in high production volumes, that each of us could afford one. I can imagine having a tank at home that charges with the compressor. Then, when I need to fill the car, I hook up a hose to the home storage tank and fill er up. I could also envision a windmill powering the home based compressor. Or solar power. When wind or sun is not available, then we pull from the grid. I’d do anything to get rid of our demand on foreign oil.
I must warn you NOT to believe the data which are published by the aircar promoters.They are wrong (and they obviously know). There main aim is not to produce this car but to collect money. I calculated the whole thing (usable energy versus required energy). It is sad, but must be said: This aircar project sounds marvelous. No pollution, low costs, acceptable autonomy, low investment and maintenance costs. Its just one grain of salt in it: its all not true. 300 liters of air with 300 bars contain the energy of 1 to 1,5 Liters of gas. And thats not enough. And that’s not the only obstacle. The tremendous energy requirement for a filling station (minimum 500 kW) is another. An there is more to it.
how much is one and where do i get one?
Cars run on compressed air? They’re certainly 10,000% better than the present gas-fed vehicles because there is no need to manufacture air and won’t increase air emissions. I, and perhaps many others I believe, could hardly wait to buy these “air” powered vehicles. Bye price gouging gas companies.
Watch out for politicians who thrive in oil and gas business. They are the potential natural killers of this new vehicle technology. They could be the first objectors in the importation of “air” powered vehicles.
I must want to now that the engiine of this air powered car is same as that of gasoline one or its of some different technology,please i just want to now the complete technology of the car with cost comparison. If possible please send me a mail of this to my email id, i’ve got a technical paper to present on this, and i’m having very less time, please make it as early as possible,thank you.
From,
Manjunatha N
7th cross
Ashoka nagar
Shimoga taluk
Shimoga district
Karnataka state
INDIA(91)
Mobile:9986143794
http://www.engineair.com.au/
Have a look at this website its an Australian and much improved Air Engine.
I want technology to retro fit existing cars to run compressed air. I have read about an inventor who has converted an internal combustion engines to use compressed air. That is very exciting. Can you imagine driving a Hummer on compressed air? I can. Or run in an RV on compressed air?
The inventor lives in America, he converted a 1977 Dodge Aspine to run on compressed air. His design is unique in that it uses 5 high pressure compressed air tanks and has an onboard air compressor that runs on nitrogen. This car never runs out of power since the onboard air compressor charges each tank as before the next one runs out.
The article is on the site http://www.keelynet.com, and is named AIRMOTOR.ASC. The inventors name is Lee Rogers.
You know people once laughed at the automobile when it first was invented. They yelled ‘hey Mister get a horse’! People are slow to accept radiacal change to the established paradigm.
It is amazing, but it seems that the fake data of some “inventors” have been so convincing that people start believing in miracles. Anybody who knows about thermodynamics can proove in minutes that the “aircar” is a fake and since years some people promise that it will come on the market soon. It’s not the bad oil multis who stop this project. It’s the pure laws of physics. PLease stop dreaming and put you interest on more realistic developments (like biofuel and low fuel consumption technologies).
Dundich needs to go to this website: http://www.engineair.com.au and see the real air car in action. Or travel to Melbourne Australia and watch it deliver fruit around the markets. And it addresses the concerns of High PSI pumps as it runs on very low PSI.
people WAKE UP!!!
you can NOT get something for nothing!!!
you loose 30% of the energy when you convert from mechanical power to air power.
something HAS to spin the air compressor. If it is an electric motor you will put 10 HP into the motor and get 7 HP worth of compressed air. the rest of the energy is wasted in the heat generated by the air compressor and motor.
even IF this wasnt a hoax, do you really want a 5000 PSI tank in your car?? take a look at some web sites that show what happens when a scuba tank explodes….they can go through a concrete wall !!!
I used to sell aircompressors, a 5000 psi compressor cost THOUSANDS of dollars!!!
wake up, smell the coffee….if we want to destroy the Oil Barons….get on the E85 alchohol bandwagon!!!
Hi Keith,
I did check the website http://www.engineair.com.au/ like I did with all the other “aircar” websites. They all have ONE thing in common. They praise their own invention AND ask for money to go on with their development, production and sales activities. Believe me or not: not everything which is published in the internet is correct. About pressure: Of course you can use low pressure air as driving agent. But the stored energy is too low to reach anywhere. The 5000 psi are just to store more energy at a given volume. As I wrote in an earlier posting: All you need to check the possibilities of air car technology are the knowledge of thermodynamics and gasmechanics and an hour of time to put everything on a spreadsheet. I wish that those who invested money in this business would have asked somebody to do that for them before the sent the dow.
Best regards
Dundich (retired design engineer for high pressure compressors and gas plants)
Air powered cars are really electric powered, if you think about it, just another form of deception thats to become the next must have, like so many other gadgets we dont need, but have… We already have the most efficient mode of transport ever invented, but most choose to ignore it. If i told you there is a way that you could save money, become fitter and more healthy (most ), possibly lose some weight, and forget what road rage is all about, then you might look up and listen. But pleeeease do take another look at the good old Bicycle. Its worth changing your lifestyle for, not just because you benefit, but the world will too….. Harmony is alive – look for it !
the information provided here are noteworthy,but its not sufficient ,more information should be provided
Hi Dundich:
I am not an engineer, nor a believer in magic, but there seems some intuitive sense to an air car. As I understand it, a regular gasoline car wastes an enormous amount of energy on heat. In addition, the gasoline engines themselves must be relatively large (heavy) and made of materials that can withstand that heat. Can’t the air car engine be much smaller, lighter and more efficient in producing the same output as the gasoline car?
All you guys that refuse to learn how the universe works listen up. Yes, air cars are real and air cars work. If you really want one scuba tanks are cheap and easy to get and hold high pressure air. Air motors are also easily purchased off the shelf. Some fabrication, regulators and a simple valve for a throttle and you have your own air car. In your face world!
Once you do this you will find a scuba tank of air might get you around the block, 10 scuba tanks might get you around the block ten times. 100 scuba tanks might get you 50 miles, that’s what my diesel VW does twice a day on a single gallon of bio-diesel. Compare the size of 100 scuba tanks to a gallon jug and you will realize one of the first problems with air cars. And refilling 100 scuba tanks daily won’t be cheap. One big problem is most people simply don’t understand the huge amount of power that is contained in a small amount of chemical fuel.
I know it is hard to know who to believe but a rule of thumb is: don’t believe the guy trying to sell you something, believe what you see working for other people.
You conspiricy guys, every buisness wants to make more money, not maintain some status quo. This may not seem to be the case sometimes because it is usually cheaper for a company to keep doing the same thing than it is to change their products. I’m telling you if some guy could make a car that runs on air, water or better yet nothing and sell it to you for peanuts his company would blow detroit and every other car maker out of the water. If you don’t buy that I’m sure somebody will be happy to sell you a magnet to put on your fuel line and cut you fuel consumption by 90 percent.
Lastly, you solar/wind power people, yes there is “free” energy to be had out there. The problem with solar power is it takes about 20-25 years for you to just pay for the system you had to buy to get the “free” energy and windmills, yes, a little wind mill a little power, a big windmill bigger power. On average windmills that make useable power (for a house for instance) have a 30 year mortage attached to them, after that the power is free!
Here’s how to tell when your dreams have come true: when you can go to Wall-Mart and buy the thing to power your house and/or car then you know it is real. ‘Till then keep dreaming or go down to your local junior college, take some classes and find out how things work.
Dear Kevin,
it makes me feel good to see that there are still people in this forum who can put two and two together. It is incredible how easy it is to fool people if one tries to put a scientific touch to a hoax. It makes me sad to read that some are even willing to donate money to those who are telling them all these fairytales. Even TV-Stations fell for it. I tried to convince one of them that they shouldt have the whole thing checked and tell people the results, but they are probably ashamed to haven fallen into the trap themselves.
It will be hard for those who have already invested money in this fake and still wait for the return.
Hi guys, I think if a few of you take your heads out of the sand and unblock your ears you may learn something from this technology otherwise feel free to forge ahead with oil as its done such wonders for the planet so far – NOT! Another suggestion do some web searching as sorry to point out the facts : its real & coming to market!
Thankyou MDI! Lucky Someone has a solution.
if you use the nick “informed” you should be so. Not by just reading the fairytales of MDI but ask somebody who really knows. Where is the solution of MDI? Since 2002 they are telling us that their car will “come on the market soon”. Why don’t you as them where the car is? They will probably tell you about the bad oil lobby and their helpers called authorities. THe reality is that they are offering you a dream that cannot become reality. And believe me: THEY KNOW!
It is powered by ethanol & air.
I see where you have been mistaken and can only suggest that you go back and apply your no doubt considerable intellect to the actual engine operation rather than what you may have assumed it to be. This can power a bus.
Its fantastic that you support ethanol and biodiesel etc but what cars are you going to run these fuels in ? Conventional gas guzzling motors? Why? This engine is less than 2litres per kilometre. From what I can tell the whole point of this engine is it runs on air in the city (no pollution and little power required and only short bursts eg 100km ) and then any other fuel on the highway eg coconut oil or ethanol or gasoline.
The compressor confusion of course is simple once you realise that the engine is the compressor (complicated in its simplicity I agree but elegant) and the fuel powers the recompression in highway cycle.
Its been a while you have been following this dundich maybe you have been watching a smoke screen behind which much has been happening? There is a lot of new media coverage and I think we are in for some pleasant suprises. Meanwhile I would take this chance to get up to speed on what we now do know and why dont you read some third party tech reports so you can stop putting down what is the most solid and real after-oil option I have seen (and seen proven) and make some positive contributions. Greater minds than ours cant fault this particular air engine so why dont you order one (for the peanuts they cost) – put your money where your mouth is. I know I will.
ha ha that should have read 2litres per 100kms – wow seriously people!!! Come on stop being “flat earthers” and start acting. This isnt about cars this is about energy – how are you going to power your pc when it starts using more energy to mine coal and oil and similar fuels than we get back burning it??? I see a big future for this engine in electricity generation and storage. Slow down and take off the blinkers as this is what you have supposedly been waiting (if you love this planet) so dont shoot it down yet!
quote:
Greater minds than ours cant fault this particular air engine so why dont you order one (for the peanuts they cost) – put your money where your mouth is. I know I will.
unquote
As I told you before: Where is this miraculous engine (which costs peanuts and compresses air to 5000 psi, runs on liquid fuel and air)? NOT on paper, but in reality. Tested by experts and proven to work for a reasonable time. I cannot find it. And frankly spoken – I think it is an imposssible dream (or a fake).
France & soon Australia & NZ & previously Switzerland for demo and many other places – coming to a city near you soon!
…seriously step back and have a look again dundich or you are not a true scientist or engineer or entrepreneur. It seems at this stage you are more interested in restating your previous misconceptions (based on your previous knowlege and experience) than you are interested in actually examining the highly credible expert test results and 3rd party due diligence now done on this engine. Again politely – you are mistaken but thats ok its easy to be misled by the misinformation that is out there. If you are truly passionate about your ignorance – go to the factory and prove the cars there arent real OR talk to the people who have driven the cars and call them liers You should also try to find people who have seen the electrical generator version of the engine publicly demonstrated and tell them they were hallucinating. While you are at it call up the major governments and environmental bodies and futurist advisors and tell them they are all fools. Of course you should save the mega corporations and vehicle manufacturers (who are quietly negotiating regional rights under your nose) from blowing their money by presenting your own detailed due diligence in contradiction of their own substantial expert analysis. Dundich it seems you know more than everyone and I congratulate you on your astounding ignorance in the face of hard core proof and scientific analysis. So for the last time politely again – step back, slow down, read and research & if you love this planet – get involved and put your no doubt considerable intellect to work for the good of humanity rather than using it to conjure up false doubts and write snide pointless and unsubstantiated criticisms of the result of 12 years work from a genius of FormulaOne engineering. If only you and others would give this much back – perhaps we would have other viable “Plan Bs” at hand???
@informed, uniformed, wellformed etc.
you blame me of “pointless and unsubstantiated criticisms”.
Well once more to make it all clear:
I know that one can drive a car with compressed air.
Now to the “genius of FormulaOne engineering”. All I need s to look at is official homepage. Did you? Did you check the data? Did you check, when this page had been revised last. Did you ask yourself why most of it is still in french only? Did you?
If you did, then explain, why there is a comlplete paralysation of thei hompage? Why they stopped the forum.
Dd you ever read, what the “Genius” himself has said about his FormulaOne career? I quote first the Geman source and give you a translation after that.
In einem Interview mit der französischen Autozeitung »Le Quotidien Auto« erinnert sich der 60-jährige Konstrukteur Guy Nègre an früher: „Meine Versuche in der Formel 1 waren ein Flop. Mit 52 war ich ruiniert. Seit meiner Kindheit habe ich mich immer nur mit Motoren beschäftigt. Die einzige Möglichkeit, mich aus meinem damaligen Dilemma zu befreien, war, mich einer noch größeren Herausforderung zu stellen.“
In an Interview with the french automotive-magazine »Le Quotidien Auto« the 60 year old designer Guy Nègre recalls:”My earlier attempts in the Formula 1 were a flop. At the age of 52 I was ruined. I had been involved with engines since childhood. The only possibility to get out of this dilemma was to face a even greater challenge.”
Well, I don’t blame Negre for having failed in his “Formula One Career” But I blame him for using this “flop” as he called it himself as a proof for his technical integrity. And I blame him for issuing data which give a completely wrong impression of his project which turned into a “never ending story”.
But, despite my age (74) I am still willing to learn. If anybody can convince me by showing me that I am wrong (but not by showing me links to the same old data) I might even apologize. Until then I will rely only technical knowledge and not on data which are not proofed at all.
The information you require is indeed available. There is nothing to hide – the technology is sound.
why has the webpage stopped? The webpage was probably most relevant during the R&D period for the technology. It also it seems brought out a lot of misinformation. Obviously once the technology was stable and proven the next step was to create a manufacturing process. This is now done and they are moving into commercialisation and deployment and are far advanced with this in a number of countries with a number of very credible parties. This is not just an engine or a car but also a new manufacturing process with 25%cost of traditional autos – hence the $8k purchase price.
You wont see the data you seek published openly – this would be madness – it is incredibly volatile! Perhaps search google and follow another more recent MDI related posting in another country to make an enquiry?
Re the quote you give : knowing translation and retranslation and retranslation (3approximation steps therein) as I do – my suggestion would be that this man may set standards for himself which are so high as to be almost humanly unattainable. With the perspective of perfectionism and contribution to the greater good of humanity perhaps his comments in the original – his native language and spoken tongue, the original French might take on a different tone!
Now lets get you the information you require – do you want some help?
I DO need help, but I am afraid that you are not the right person to give it. After all, you consider this man Negre as somebody untouchable, like the Pope or Jesus Christ himself:
“…this man may set standards for himself which are so high as to be almost humanly unattainable.”
That really sounds more like religion than engineering. He stopped the homepage because everything is so secret? Reminds me of the secrets of the Vatican.
But if you can show me proofs that Negres published data are correct – I am ready to study your information carefully.
come now havent you seen the popemobile – you have to get one! What is this pope stuff dundich??? bizarre.
Why dont you do as I suggested and contact the most recently listed MDI related google entry? I have suggested this a number of times and it avoids wasting time with me who cant give you this detail though know it is there for you to get. I imagine if you are polite they will be more than happy to accommodate your every enquiry.
Re the published results you carry on about – you are in for some shocks as it seems there has been substantial further progress and what you couldnt believe before has indeed been proven and there are new developments afoot which will really blow your mind. You will need to leave some baggage at the door though and open your mind which it seems you are willing to do so good luck! I am confident you will as I be entirely satisifed if you stop knocking and start listening – open the mind!
And why shouldnt Guy and whoever keep it a secret? Do they have to share it with you? If it was me I would just start selling cars and let the product talk what is the point of promotion when it just draws attention which wastes time and energy – there is a planet to save – I think they have the right idea keeping their heads low.
what kind of Google-entry are you talking about? If I google for MDI I get tons of old stuff, but none of the new developments you mention. I need a specific link
About secrets: If I buy a car, I want to know (minimum)
- The price
- the distance I can drive with one tank filling
- the availability of filling stations
- main technical data like top speed, acceleration, aso.
If the car seller tells me these data are secret, I tell him something I would not mention here.
Maybe google is doing something odd. I found this page listed to the left of a sponsored link (very fresh) after I searched for air car.
Yes if you were buying a car of course they would tell you whatever you needed to know – though I think talking to other owners will be more useful.
Point to note – first they are making electrical generators and really these are more important and exciting than a car. Au$0.06 per kwh is a very low cost for renewable energy generation – WOW! Ok so they arent in Walmart yet (as someone in this forum requested) but give it a little more time – direct sales first of course then retail would make sense!
There is no interest in keeping anything secret from anyone from what I gather its just “need to know”. Untill they are flooded onto the streets – I agree that no one needs to know anything.
quote
Maybe google is doing something odd. I found this page listed to the left of a sponsored link (very fresh) after I searched for air car.
unquote
which page are you talking about? All the info I find ends about 2003.
I found air car at http://www.itmdi-energy.com
this is new.
from what I can tell there is a new model with following spec for you which you mentioned:
The price – au$8000
- the distance I can drive with one tank filling -4000km on one tank of ethanol – 100or200km on air then refill the carbon fibre (and thereby non exploding on impact) tanks as you drive using fuel eg back on the highway after going through a town.
- the availability of filling stations – can use petrol or diesel so there are many filling stations in the world and as alternatives like ethanol etc become available it can use those too (this is probably the biggest advantage of this vehicle) it is nonfuel specific and the air tanks are self compressing or fillable if desired at home in about 4 hours.
- main technical data like top speed, acceleration, aso. – top speed of this base model is limited to 110km/h (the legal speed limit there) but models can do over 160km/h – acceleration is similar to a similar size conventional vehicle which I think means the first model is about economy not performance and high powered versions will come soon.
I am sorry, but I must leave this wonderland of dreams. If this thread still exist in one year, I’ll come back and check what’s left of it.
4000 km on one tank filling of petrol, diesel or ethanol???
200 km on one air tank filling???
All I can do before I withdraw is to warn you not to invest money on these dreams. Waking up might be quite painful.
You should listen to kevin ad myself rather than the ad’s of people who want to take your money and spend it on something else.
Hasta la vista! Dundich
http://www.beyondtomorrow.com.au/stories/ep17/frenchaircar.html
too good!
My company is currently working on a car powered by compressed air. We already have a working model, and it is far better than the MDI car. The engine works a lot different, with a lot more power from less pressure. Hopefully, we will soon be getting the word out after we gain a few more second round investors. So far our technology has secretly been tested in a go cart, commercial lawn mower, truck, car, and a dune buggy. In every application our motor has out performed a standard combustion engine. We are a US based company, and hopefully will be able to start releasing this technology to the public.
Now I have to cry foul!
The “air” car described at http://www.theaircar.com/ is not an air car at all. It is a hybrid that burns hydrocarbons to operate. Using compressed air in place of the batteries used on most hybrids may be novel but it won’t work as well as batteries for the same reasons golf carts use battery power instead of compressed air.
The environmentalists should note that MDI says on the FAQ page of their site “there is no technology that permits for completely pollution free vehicles”.
I would suggest that solar powered charging of an electric car would be almost pollution free. The problem with this approach is it is wildly inefficient and therefore expensive; also there is the range issue. Most of our pollution problems can be solved with the outlay of enough cash. I could run my home and car on solar power and create almost no pollution but I can’t afford it.
I would also like to say, as a person that lives in the country, I don’t accept the idea that it is OK to pollute the countryside if you don’t pollute the city. One part of MDI’s plan is to double their emissions in the country in order to run cleanly in the city. Please don’t dump the urban area’s problems on me!
@Brandon
quote:
The engine works a lot different, with a lot more power from less pressure.
unquote
I really wonder how you are overcomming the laws of thermodynamics.
quote:
Hopefully, we will soon be getting the word out after we gain a few more second round investors.
unquote
THAT sounds familiar. Invest your money and than I am going to tell you how (or better – IF) the thing works.
I just wonder how long this will be going on. Reminds a bit of the alchemists who pretended to know the secret of making gold during the Middle Ages.
http://www.itmdi-energy.com
This one runs on hydrocarbons, they clearly state “2 liters per 100km”, does anyone think they are saying 2 liters of air? The answer is no they are not talking about air. So this is not an “air car”.
http://www.engineair.com.au/
These guys have a new air motor design. That’s fine but you don’t see any performance comparisons against current air motor designs. A comparison with existing technology to highlight the new product’s superiority will be the first thing you see if the new product is really superior. For example, traditional cars: 30-40 mpg; hybrid cars: 50-60 mpg. All products that offer a real improvement will always highlight that improvement when marketing the product.
What these guys have done very well is find the perfect application for an air-powered vehicle – delivering produce in a farmers market environment. When moving veggies around people in a small area you don’t want exhaust fumes so hydrocarbon-burning engines are out. The next obvious option is electric; the problem with electric is it takes a long time to fuel-up (recharge). But an air-powered vehicle is prefect, you don’t have to go very far, there is no smell and you can refill it very quickly. Good job Engineair! But don’t try to drive the thing to work that’s a completely different application, one that it won’t be very good at (unless you work a block or two away from home).
Dundich, thanks for the kind comments. And you are so right. Sometimes I wonder if I would be better off financially perpetrating a scam instead trying to invent things to improve peoples’ lives.
“I pity the fools” who cant put all this together.
The MDI car runs on any fuel eg ethanol (nil net pollution if you think about it) or biodiesel. It is, it would seem – a dual energy engine not a hybrid.
Current Solar Systems eg photovoltaics are manufactured using filthy petrochemicals and require huge input energy to manufacture them (this input energy is produced through current polluting electricity generation methods eg burning coal) – so NO solar particularly with PV’s is not an answer to the “nil net energy” crisis which is coming.Organic PV’s are great (and yes these are real and an exciting future option before you criticise blindly again) but they are some time off commercially.
Quickly on the topic of electric cars – have you done the figures on input energy to create a Toyota Prius? Unfortunately there seems no net benefit to the world from these type of vehicles as batteries (and current car designs) require massive input energy to manufacture them which offsets any potential benefit over the life of the vehicle. That is to say – the benefit of a lot of these (ill conceived) technologies is outweighed by the energy used to create them.
This is where the MDI engine/generator/vehicle is amazing – it has extremely low input energy to manufacture and as they can produce electricity themselves the engines can power the factory (There are a number of other large industrial players currently having MDI systems designed to supply their energy needs while you still say it cant work – come on Dundich I am talking big industrial processes – run by engineers – as I think you said was your own field?). DO you see ? This is real but isnt so much about cars as electricity….
Its time to stop talking/stressing pollution (think slowly about the ethanol cycle through including the sugar cane plants growing and producing O2). Likewise for say hemp seed oil or rape seed oil etc etc. 2litres of ethanol per 100km is fine by me and as the pollution is lower (per litre of fuel burnt) and much less fuel is being burnt to acheive transport in both the city and country there is a huge benefit for “non-suburban” dwellers such as myself.
The priority it would seem for the MDI engine must be as an eleciricity generator – the cars wil be great but we need power of all sorts particularly distributed point of use generation and storage as we approach “nil net energy” from coal and gas in the next decade.
The MDI car is ready for market (eg factories are being negotiated for regional manufacture) – the rest of these air powered vehicles are only in development. For now MDI wil be great and no doubt others may one day have an “at market” product too….. awesome for us all!
MrT,
A tank of compressed air is the same as a battery, a flywheel or a thermos of hot water, that is, it is an energy storage device. The fact that a battery and a tank of compressed air is the same kind of thing makes the MDI vehicle a hybrid.
You are correct about the environmental impact of creating things. But if you need a car the question is do you buy a car that destroys the planet a lot more after you make it or somewhat less after you make it. Also, there are alternatives to the use of fossil fuels. Solar cells and cars could easily be created using alternative non-polluting energy sources.
As far as “2 Liters of ethanol per 100 km” goes, perhaps. But once you add air conditioning, power steering, power brakes, heated leather seats, 5 mph bumpers and enough additional steel to make it pass crash safety testing and you won’t see much more than 25 km/L. If this hoax ever makes it to EPA mileage testing, I’ll believe their numbers.
You seem to know a lot about the MDI generator. The question is how many kilowatt-hours per Liter can they produce and what do they cost? I’m considering generating electricity at my home and expect the power to be free except for the capitol expenses, which should be paid off in about 2.5 years. However, if the MDI generator is the better deal I will use it instead.
Let me take a load off your mind, there will be no “nil net energy”. We have enough oil for at least 50 years and enough coal for another 250 years and lots of other forms of energy available out there. What we are looking at is a slow increase of energy prices over the next few hundred years, so relax.
Lastly, this post is supposed to be about air cars not generators or hybrid cars.
nil net energy {broad definition}: the point at which the same amount of energy is used to get the fuel (mine for ore etc for equipment, then make equipment,find crude oil deposits,mine,extract,refine,transport & deliver fuel to the end user) as is produced by the eventual use of the fuel by the end user (eg by burning it as petroleum in their car’s internal combustion engine). This is nil net energy and this point is expected for oil and gas within 10 to 20 years. Yes there will be plenty of oil left but it will be too energy intensive to make extraction from the Earth viable. This is not about money being spent on new oil exploration nor is it about oil running out – it is actually about how much energy we use to get our fuel. The last dregs of oil will no doubt be left in the Earth (thank goodness) due to the simple “mathematics of depletion”. So you are right there is plenty of oil probably for 50 years and beyond (if you include tar pits etc) but it will not be viable (from a global net energy perspective) to continue to mine and sell oil within 20 years – we would be going backwards – using more oil to get less oil. Do you see the issue?
AND THERE IS NOTHING WE CAN DO TO CHANGE THIS…
You can arm yourself with real acts and figures at:
http://www.peakoil.net
The difference between a battery and a compressed air tank is the input energy to create a carbon fibre tank is very low but is very high for batteries (also toxic pollutants involved in the manufacture and disposal of batteries) and a carbon fibre tank doesnt “wear out” where a battery has a very short life cycle in comparison.
The MDI vehicle doent require your traditional heating and cooling gadgets due to the exothermic and endothermic nature of the compression and decompression (respectively) of air. The exhaust is cold & the tank gets warm. You can put your hand on the aluminium block when the car is running.
Have you ever seen a Formula One car crash at 200km/h and the driver survives? This is not from “extra steel” or bumper bars it is through the tubular alloy monocoque chassis the car is built around – as with the MDI car.
The 25km/litre which you mention is a whole heap better than my car can acheive. However the stated fuel consumption figure is real (for the current model to be manufactured) and 3rd party testing by internationally renowned vehicle testing laboratories will indeed confirm this.
With your home: I would suggest that grid connected Solar Thermal eg http://www.solel.com would be a good start with a quality inverter eg Fronius. Dont buy batteries and later integrate the MDI engine for storage and additional generation when it is available next year. Then pump your power into the grid and (if your local power company are sensible) you will start getting decent income back as well as clean energy for yourself.
How does that sound?
PS it is dual energy block not hybrid as it uses the same block as the energy generation point eg the engine is turned by either compressed air or the external combustion of fuel – as such it is unlike a hybrid which involves electricity and alternators and an electric motor supplementing the internal combustion engine -hence the term hybrid – a mix of two sperate things to form one. This MDI engine is clearly not the same – so I can see we need a different and correct term and the term apparently is dual energy block. It is not two engines working together (hybrid) but one engine being driven by two energy types (dual energy). I can understand your confusion as I thought the same myself intially but I am sure you can now see the difference?
A number of people on this post have pointed out the issues facing “air car” developers. MDI appear to also be very well aware of these issues and have cleverly and sensibly used their technology to build a real workable “at market” car which functions as an “air car” in urban areas,where less power is required and great range is not needed but pollution is currently the worst. The MDI car still pollutes much much less than other vehicles when in the country (particluarly if using ethanol) and requires relatively low input energy to manufacture – seems like a winner to me???
MrT
Thanks for the explanation and definition for “nil net energy”, and yes I now understand the issue.
Still I don’t think nil net energy should be of great concern. Let me make up some fictional numbers to explain. In the past a gallon of crude is consumed to get a barrel of crude and as a consumer I paid a pretty cheap price to get a gallon of gas. When nil net energy arrives it will take a barrel of crude to get a barrel of crude, now I have to pay more to get that gallon of gas, essentially I am paying for my gas and the barrel of crude it took to get it. After that it may take a barrel of crude to get a gallon of crude, now as before I simply pay more for the gallon of gas, roughly I pay for both barrels in order to get the gallon. Put simply the price of gas will slowly increase as time goes by and nil net energy is nothing more than a particular point along the way, like new year’s day or the half way point on your road trip, note worthy perhaps but still just another day of the year or mile on the road, Crude will probably be sold for decades after the nil net energy point. Here’s another way to look at it: people want products, houses, cars, Ipods and lots of energy is consumed to manufacture these things and no energy is ever gotten back from these products. If you look at crude in the same way, as a product that is sold for a dollar amount, it really doesn’t matter how much energy is consumed in it’s manufacture as long as people are willing to buy it. Believe me the producers of fuels will blow right by the nil net energy point and not even slow down.
Far from being something to fret over, this is good news for everyone that wants us to move away from fossil fuel energy. Because as crude slowly gets more expensive alternatives get more competitive. A good example is biodiesel. My supplier tells me biodiesel costs him around two dollars a gallon. When diesel sold for a buck fifty nobody wanted his biodiesel but, when diesel went to three dollars a gallon he was selling it for two fifty a gallon and couldn’t keep up with demand.
In summary I believe we have the perfect situation. The cost of crude will slowly continue to increase in cost and as it does one alternative after another will become economically viable. Good news all around. When gas is eighty dollars a gallon even a crappy air car might start to look pretty good.
OK, email me in a year and let me know where to buy an MDI generator. But I warn you I still won’t buy unless I know how many kilowatthours per Liter.
kevin.jackson@alliedelec.com
KJ I agree with almost what you say – yes fuel producers will continue to produce past nil net energy.
Now:
stop and think about it without the money which isnt the issue and confuses the main point:
“nil net energy” becomes a BIG issue when you combine it with dwindling “available hydrocarbons per capita”.
Every day all round the world we use more and more energy, there are more and more people and more and more cars – THUS globally the per capita hydrocarbons available are thus diminishing fast having peaked in the 80’s (an accepted but un-discussed fact). If we are using all the energy we can produce where do these extra barrels of oil you mentioned come from? When nil net energy hits and we are at peak production capacity the power starts to run out – can you see? Someone has to miss out! X units of energy (where X is the total available hydrocarbons) if used up to create another X units of energy means that all we are doing with our energy is creating more energy…. Do you see? This is a ever iminishing downward spiral at the bottom of which are a lot of brown outs and black outs and energy rationing. We must act well before this point if we want to avoid discomfort and in some cases disaster. The longer we leave it the harder it will be to pull this up.
Everyone is worried about how much oil will cost – BUT how long can we continue once global net energy is negative? – Not very long!
This isnt about how much it will cost in $ its about how much energy we acan afford to waste just producing more energy. The science/economics of depletion will ensure that oil and gas will be increasingly energy hungry materials to obtain as supplies are reduced – this issue is not in any way in doubt – its just too scary for most people to even comprehend.
@ MrT
quote:
… a carbon fibre tank doesnt “wear outâ€? where a battery has a very short life cycle in comparison.
unquote.
questions: It is true that a battery has a limited life cycle. On the other hand, an electric generator has a very long one, whilst a compressor for 350 bars needs a lot of service and relatively high upkeep costs. Pressure vessels for such pressure need periodic checkup (pressure test, visual control) which might be quite costly.
quote:
The MDI vehicle doent require your traditional heating and cooling gadgets due to the exothermic and endothermic nature of the compression and decompression (respectively) of air. The exhaust is cold & the tank gets warm.
unquote
questions: PLease explain how this should work. Compression and decompression are depending on the driving situation (driving uphill or downhill) how can I heat a car whilst going uphill an how can I cool it going downhill?
quote:
Have you ever seen a Formula One car crash at 200 km/h and the driver survives? This is not from “extra steelâ€? or bumper bars it is through the tubular alloy monocoque chassis the car is built around – as with the MDI car.
unquote
questions: This comparison seems far fetched to me. A car crash with 300 bar containers on board is anything else but save.
I also wonder about the efficiency of power storage via compressed air compressed air in comparison to storage by electric battery. As far as I know, the relation of recovered power to input power is rather poor with the air storage alternative.
How high is the power consumption of a filling station wich fills 90 litres with 300 bars
Last question. The MDI homepage still showa “air cars” without addtional energy from hydrocarbon combustion. Is their still a plan to produce these pure “air cars”?
The engine is the compressor so no compressor involved
Air is being compressed during driving – this gives heat – the air tank itself gets hot
Air is being decompressed while driving – this gives cooling – the exhaust is cold and can be used for cooling cabin
Carbon Fibre in the event of a severe crash – will split – in which case air will flow out easily at low pressure – causing no safety issue – this is not an issue using this tank type.
The efficiency for air as energy storage medium is acheived through the function of the engine which as said is effectively both the compressor and the generator.
Obviously any “filling stations” should preferably be supplied its electricity for compression and other needs from a solar thermal/mdi generation/storage system.
I believe the next generation (something like 3years following manufacture of this current vehicle generation ) of MDI product will eliminate hydrocarbons entirely and utilise a new thermodynamic cycle. Meanwhile (as noted multiple times on this post) current “compressed air only” vehicles would have limited application in most countries. Whereas the current MDI dual energy vehicles are a great step the right direction and are the best and perhaps only – real (it exists) and right now (no further R&D required and there are few barriers to public usage eg it can use any fuel)alternative to standard internal combustion engines.
Some of you are “Visionary” and some are “fatalistic”. The rest of us are “Amused”. For those who can’t follow the “Tech” an air motor is nothing new. An example of an air motor is an impact rachet/hammer used in garages everywhere to remove wheels from cars. The power source is an “Air Compressor” which requires an external source of power. An “Air compressor will create hot air. Hot air is soft air. Cold air is hard air. This type of “Air Motor” is called a “Rotory Vain”. Another example of a “Rotory Vain” is the Wankle Rotory engine used in Mazada automobiles begining in the “70s”. The external source was gasoline.
Hi Dundich,
“Air is being compressed during driving”
“Air is being decompressed while driving”
Sounds like perpetual motion doesn’t it?
I wonder how much investor funding I could receive with my new electric car concept. With this electric car the motor is also a generator so the batteries propel the car during driving and the generator charges the batteries while driving. The only problem would be overcoming my ethical impediments.
If MrT is hanging his hopes on the MDI engine he should surf around the web as many people have non-traditional engine designs that promise to revolutionize the world.
Hi Kevin,
after having decided to step out of this thread, I fell again in the trap of the producers of hot air. The last reply of “Mr. T” to my specific questions leaves only two conclusions. He is either completely bare of any technical knowledge and really believes the nonsense he produces or he is not but tries purposly to fool people who can not check the statements because the are not able to evaluate them. In both cases I think that he should stop making such statements like:
“Carbon Fibre in the event of a severe crash – will split – in which case air will flow out easily at low pressure – causing no safety issue – this is not an issue using this tank type.”
300 bar (4350 psi) air will seep out at low pressure- I wonder what the technical safety experts will think about such statement.
What do you think about it? I think we should both step out of this technical kindergarten.
dundich,
Yes, I give up. I guess there will always be people that will buy into any whacky scam. Just look at your local “health” food store. While supplementing your diet with some vitamins is generally OK, there is nothing in those stores that will make you lose weight and build muscle while you sit on the couch or cure your cancer.
As far as safety goes scuba tanks are everywhere and most people don’t think twice about them. Imagine the outcry if we had never had conventional cars and a guy had the idea of driving around with gallons of highly flammable gasoline in a thin metal tank. You’d never be allowed to do something so dangerous!
As for the rest of you guys, tell me about an air car if you can find one. And when I say tell me about, I mean real information like tank size, tank pressure and miles per fillup.
Hi Kevin,
you wrote:
“As far as safety goes scuba tanks are everywhere and most people don’t think twice about them.”
You are right that scuba tanks are common equipment but their size is a fraction of those which are used for the “air car”. The latter are real bombs and I would not feel safe sitting on top of one of them in case of a severe crash. Even the rupture of connection nozzles could lead to severe casualities. I just cannot believe that the concerned authorities will issue clearance for use in outdoor trafic. Or do you think so?
Hi dundich,
I understand your safety concerns, my only experience in this area was an un-secured tank that fell over, snapping the valve off in the process and then going through three wood doors, two cinder block walls and stopping a good ways away in a field – real scary! And only luck prevented injury or death.
I wonder what size of tank we are talking about. If the minimum consumer acceptable range is 300 miles (just a number, my Jetta goes 600, my old 74 Charger goes about 300 – 20 gal. x 15 mpg) how big will that tank be? I assume it will be big, real big. My simple mind says that standard scuba tanks would be the way to go initially because they represent a mature technology and as such they are produced at minimal cost, they are common so they are perceived as safe by the unthinking populace and I think they could be mechanically bound to each other in a secure enough fashion as to minimize the dangers.
What I imagine when I think of an air car is a large box truck with the entire cargo area filled with a multi-scuba tank module and seating for three up front. And that still might not be enough air to go very far. If I get a chance I’ll try to find a number for CFM per Horsepower.
To answer your question, there are groups that so desperately want something different that they see as “better”. Groups like that often get what they want through politics, whether it makes sense or not. Add to that the fact that existing safety rules for high-pressure tanks in mobile situations are meager to say the least (essentially they have to be “secured” in a fashion that prevents them from falling over or rolling around). If you use that as a starting point for the new regulations and add political pressure I would say the chances are good that clearance would be forthcoming.
Hi dundich,
Sometimes I surprise myself.
I picked 15 hp for cruise power, found a 30 hp air motor at Ingersoll Rand (KK5B550), used 300 CFM (gets you 15 hp) and chose 7 1/4″ dia. x 24″ tanks at 3000 psi and got 471 tanks for a 300 mile range not counting accelerating to speed. You could package the tanks into an 8′ x 8′ x 12′ block.
A lot closer to my guess than I would have guessed.
Hi Kevin,
Sorry but I can`t folllow your calculations. 15 hp is too much, but even then it is discouraging enough.
The theoretical power for straight drive w/o any auxiliaries is approx 4.5 HP at 50 km/hr
I made some calculations. One example:
car with 2.15 m² cross section and 800 kg
constant speed at even surface: 50 km/hr
scuba tanks with total volume of 300 liters
Pressure 300 bars
driving range 130 km
to refill the tank in 3 minutes it would need a high pressure 4-stage compressor with a 500 kW driver!
Sounds like a cheap net of filling stations
Hi Kevin,
I tried to follow up your calculation with the IR air motor and get a very weird result. could you check that, please?
consumption for 15 hp : 300 scfm
equals 300 x 60 = 18000 scfh
speed of car 50 mph
required distance 300 miles
time 300/50 = 6 hrs
air consumption 6 x 18000 = 108000 scf
content of one cylinder 74 scf
cylinders needed 108000/74= 1459 (!!)
weight per cylinder 31 lbs
total weight of package 1459 x 31= 45243 lbs (!)
you can make a car run off the air all you do is hooke the air presuer were the spark plugs go and run air though that way. and have a air compriser and the back of the car to keep the car going for a long time. but one thing have to use oil to keep the parts moving but dont need gase and spark pulgs. i seen in school a teacher show me on that ran off air but had no spark pluk that was were the air holes was at.
Hi dundich,
Sorry I’ve been away so long.
I lost my scribble sheet so I can’t determine the error of my ways however, I don’t see any problem with your approach. It looks like a good estimate to me.
If the gang sees any problems with this estimate I hope they will let us know. And knowing now how much air storage is needed they should be better equipped to evaluate the claims of air car proponents.
Kevin
Hi Chris,
What your teacher didn’t tell you is that the compressor has to be a lot bigger than the engine for that to work. And you would need an even bigger engine to run that big compressor.
So, what you would end up with is a really big engine driving a big compressor that would then drive your “air motor”. The problem with that plan is; you would get a lot better performance and economy if you took off the heavy compressor and extra motor and just pushed the car with a regular engine. That’s one reason why no real car company sells an “air” powered car.
Kevin
Hi Air Power Believers & dissenters,
meanwhile here on our planet Earth the phrase
“Nero fiddled while Rome burned”
seems very applicable globally. The maths you use in your calculations is flawed – not in application to currently available technology – you are right the theory of an air car using current tech has major issues. HOWEVER as you know the MDI vehicle is very different. Even within your formulae I see a way foward for your thoughts – reduce the vehicle weight to 300kgs (as with the MDI Dual Energy Block vehicle) and use low drag coefficients (as with MDI) then use carbon fibre tanks (as with MDI) rather than the heavy scuba tanks you mention often. Carbon Fibre is a proven safe air storage method – it wont burst and wont explode but can crack and release air safely if exposed to super super force. Now having chopped out all the weight and drag you had in your calculations it would seem that suddenly “air only” powering of the MDI vehicle is indeed possible and very exciting.
The new generation of engines are being assembled right now – coming to a demo in a polluted city near you!
Of course we should all be supportive of this and other important work as we approach nil net energy (NNE) from oil and gas.
Yours Keeping It Real
MrT
Dear MrT,
as being one of the “Air Power dissenters” in this forum I want to tell you one thing: As an engineer and environment conscious person I would more than happy, if I could convert and become a believer. But this is not a religious but a scientific matter and even if I take all your arguments into consideration – light weight, low drag coefficients and what you call a “new generation of enginesâ€? – I just can’t see a light at the end of this tunnel.
Nobody with knowledge in machinery doubts the fact, that compressed air can be used as a driving force. There are millions of applications as a proof. But there are too many obstacles when one tries to do what MDI claims to have in mind: building a car which is practical enough to become an interesting solution for road traffic.
Since you seem to be in the know about the progress of the mdi project (which I consider, to be honest, as a scam), maybe you can answer a few questions about the future MDI vehicle:
1) MDI propagates that “refuelling� an air car for a range of 200 km could be done either
- in 3 minutes at a filling station
- in about 5 hours when connected to a household electric outlet.
What power requirement would a filling station have to fill air cars in direct sequence (about 5 minutes between each filling?
What is the power and weight of the electric motor for the “onboard� filling?
2) If you use the car in Winter – How will you heat it?
3) A 300 bar multistage engine is a highly sophisticated peace of machinery. How about maintenance costs and services intervals?
4) How about feeding electrical equipment: wipers, lights, onboard radio etc.?
5) Where are the air containers situated? Below the seats? All pictures to be found in the web are very vague about that important detail.
6) Last question: When will there be a witnessed range and functional test of this car (going full distance with full initial pressure). The little movies about a car driving around the factory yard are not very convincing. I want to see for instance (or be told by neutral witnesses) how the system copes with the Joule Thomson cooling effect at low ambient temperatures and high air humidity.
I hope you can answer at least some of the questions.
Regards dundich
Hi
yes when I have time I will answer all these questions.
Meanwhile here is quite a good story from YouTube. There has been much progress since then but at least you can see a car diven on the road and engines very real and running on testbeds – a number of years ago.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFbKINlXzRk
and here is a picture showing tank placement ( and carbon fibre tank manufacturer’s brand clearly visible in this pic – well proven aero space technology from space shuttle)
back soon
your servant
MrT
I seen it done from a teach tomah high school build a enging that runs on air. all you have to do to make the car run long distance is hav the air compers hook up to a car batter and have the aircompers running to keep the enging going. if you dont know what mean then then i guest you not that smart then. all you need to do is have the air holes hook up the same way you do with gas tank but dont need spark pulk or air filter but your muffler to let the air out the other end.
If air cars ran on wishes mine would be out of gas.
Hi MrT,
Remember the “air car” (if there were one) would be competing in a very tough market. dundich thought my cruise power requirement of 15 hp was too high. But, I’m telling both of you, like the majority of car buyers, I have to have air conditioning, a loud stereo, heated seats, power steering, brakes, windows and everything else American car buyers are accustomed to in a car. Put all that in an air car and it will weigh way more than 300 kg (not to mention 100,000 kg of scuba tanks) and will require a lot of power just to roll at a constant speed. As far as aerodynamics goes, many cars today have exceptionally low drag yet they still don’t get spectacular mileage (believe me it’s not for lack of trying). Carbon fiber is expensive and the air car must have a reasonable price in order to compete. I’m telling you, every car manufacturer has teams of bright people trying to marry the requirements of weight, power, efficiency (in both operation and manufacture), style and price. You will have to meet their level of refinement in order to sell air cars. Also bear in mind; most buyers don’t care much about the environment, crash safety or the state of the oil supply when they buy a car. Most want something big, powerful, luxurious and cheap. I expect you will say: the engine is so efficient, the carbon fiber is great, the manufacturing process is new and exciting, the car can be feather light, the aerodynamics will be terrific. When we have REAL performance number for any part of this “air car” I’m sure dundich will be happy to revise his estimate. But today we are talking about 1500 scuba tanks! Please provide specifications so we can lower this ridiculous number.
Hi Chris,
You are talking about an electric car. Because the power comes from batteries to run the compressor(s) that runs the air motor it is an electric car. Once again however, your car will go a lot farther and a lot faster if you hook the batteries to an electric motor like a golf cart.
Worth noting however is the fact that batteries running a compressor that then ran an air motor would work a lot better than air tanks running an air motor.
Hi dundich,
It might be interesting to see a comparison of the energy contained in a gallon of gas, a car battery and a scuba tank. I think these guys have no concept of the incredible amount of energy contained in a gallon of gas.
Kevin
Hi Kevin,
when I said that 15 HP is too high, I meant that referring to MDI’s meager performance figures, not as a real reasonable value.
You know, the more I look into that mattter the more it reminds of the story of the alchemist of the middle ages who promised to make gold and collected money for years and years from the King. From time to time he came up with some faked proofs of success, just to keep the kings confidence.
I cannot imagine that the MDI people don’t know the basics of thermodynamics and gas theory. Just look on their meager homepage. And all the little PR films to show the car going around in the factory courtyard. It all shows in the same direction. To collect money from people like chris who do not know better.
Do you think that I am on the wrong trail?
Hi dundich,
No, I think you’re exactly right. A car that runs on air sounds great to people who have no real understanding of how things work in this era, just like turning lead into gold might sound reasonable to people with no exposure to chemistry. Add to that a genuine desire to improve environmental and social conditions, a trust towards organizations that claim to have knowledge and the solution, and lastly an economic system that encourages people to invest their cash in their dreams and the scam artists are bound to follow.
I’ve had some experience with hucksters like these. And have been amazed at how long they can keep the bubble from bursting. Putting off long term investor with new plans and bogus progress reports while at the same time conning newbie’s into the promise with evidence of the great progress they’ve mad, how long they’ve been in business and how soon the money will start pouring in. It looks like MDI’s ploy now is to shift the attention away from the air car product and to their “new” engine. But the story always ends with the con men holding the money and somebody else holding the balloon when it pops.
I got an email in my spam bin a few days ago about a revolutionary new discovery. It would seem that if you put a magnet around your fuel line it will line-up your fuel’s atoms and double your gas mileage, clean your engine and make you more attractive to the opposite sex. How much money has that one taken in?
It sure looks easier and more profitable to run a bogus business than to invent real products and make a real company a success.
Kevin
The skepticism shown here is bizarre and unfounded: the technology has been publicly demonstrated; the designer is a proven track record of many years; there have been numerous test drivers / reporters examining the working prototype; there are duplicate results from similar designs being worked out in Australia, … etc. ( and still you call it a “hoax”?) And, if you want to know about the charging technology, and/or costs, those are well published, and VERY practical (driving will be a lot cheaper than the current gas smoker in your driveway).
This isn’t rocket science: you put compressed air into a cylinder and it expands making the cylinder move — does that sound like a familiar phenomena (think gas exploding).
And on the topic of exploding: their pressure tubes are carbon composite and are said to simply split in an accident, not blow into bits like a grenade; on the other hand, have YOU ever been at the site of a burning wreck (gas is not the safest of materials)?
Not EVERYTHING is a conspiracy or scam. It’s increasingly thinking like this that gives even the French a leg up on us as leaders of the technological future.
Try more thinking and less smirking.
- Lauren D
Greetings all ye disbelievers and heretics,
Here is a video which shows the safety that can be achieved with even an inferior rigid steel frame (as opposed to the stronger lighter tubular alloy of F1 racing/MDI fame) vs impact with concrete barrier at 70mph!
http://www.youtube.com:80/watch?v=ju6t-yyoU8s&mode=related&search
More soon and just for fun (the logic I display in this clip is reminiscent of some of your objections and arguments against the MDI vehicle):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kY44AgrZaGM
I think you will all be forced to accept soon even if ou cant believe!
PS: more soon fool
L8R
MrT
Ok for anyone who still doesnt realise that MDI and its dual energy engine ARE VERY REAL….
NEWS FLASH….
would you listen to one of the world’s largest auto makers??? Try the article in the link below….
http://www.tatamotors.com/our_world/press_releases.php?ID=281&action=Pull
Great to see the developing nations of the world doing their bit …..
….now how about the rest of us fat slobs in developed consumerist economies???
Lets stop disbelieving and wasting energy and ACT NOW!
CONGRATULATIONS MDI – you go – today India – tomorrow the world!
….and Guy Negre – You da man!
Love to you ALL
MrT
I read in the newspapers today about tata motors entering into a tie up with MDI. What intrigued me was the concept of the engine. I couldn’t stop myself and have been reading up for the past 4 hours on this technology.
Tata motors is one of the biggest car manufacturers of India, and has international presence. I think mr Dundich should apologize now, and should try to keep on open mind.
No offence meant to anyone, but it has got to be true if tata is involved.
hay must not be smart to try buil one and see how well its work i seen one done on small enging in school. wont to talk smart it does work just to keep the air compaser runin just need batteise to keep the power going pluse a word the earth is going to go bad if you dont know how to build it the gase is bad and cusing the earth to be damage and the wether efeicts
a teacher had showed one that work off of air in school i saw it and other kids that were there were shock how it ran its not that hard to build if you smart enogh to build one then do it. but if your dumm to not build one then your scuew up in the head if you dont wont the world to get better then let it get distior by whats going on that efficts the weather and makes it worst to live in i cant belive you guys dont wont to make to earth better that so dum that know one want to build this car that runs off of air its better for the encoming and can breath better than have to smell that gas that is tockit who willing to do this thing.
@ Lauren D
It might surprise you but the agreement between MDI and Tata Motors does not at all change my critical view of the MDI aircar concept. It fits all the earlier PR-activities of MDI. This agreement is of no practical value, but it helps both partners to raise hopes at their shareholders (who normally are not able to estimate the technical parameters, which are still the same and can not be changed because they are dependig on unchangeable physical laws).
Interesting enough that MDI’s homepage is now “under construction”, which means not existing at the time and I am looking forward to the revamped site with eager interest.
Regards Dundich
@ Dundich
My comments before were not aimed at defending MDI, or anyone else, per se — I’m not in a position to judge anyone’s particular business intentions The point I was trying to make, and should have made more clearly, is very roughly this: the kinds of particular arguments and the sort of general skepticism, both raised on this site against the air-car (et al) seem indicative of a broader mindset which is growing in America and which foretells a diminishing American future.
Let me sketch my reasons for saying this in three steps:
STEP ONE – HISTORY: there is a critical mass of political and economic forces coming together right now in support of radical alternatives to the traditional internal combustion, carbon emitting, oil dependent, status quo. This is of course partly due to the Iraq debacle and escalating oil prices, and partly due to the emerging popular consensus about the immediacy and seriousness of global warming as real threat. That makes this a rare and significant moment for those who offer technologies with even the rough potential of real success; and, of course, it also makes this a moment where scammers with half-baked ideas may prosper.
STEP TWO – SOCIAL PSYCHOLOGY: Historically at such moments of opportunity, there are two different ways societies can respond. In traditionalist societies, you often see a kind of skeptical eye and smirking disbelief collectively applied to all new comers, there is a general demand that they prove themselves, on their own, before their projects are given any serious consideration. In such societies, cynicism has taken hold to such a degree that the priority becomes one of avoiding error, attacking naivete, and assuming the worst so as not to be taken in. America was never one of these countries: we sought to find new truth, at the risk of new error, to risk failure, over and over again in an effort at finding new paths to success (Americans never felt so flattened by failure as their European counterparts did, and this offered us a unique advantage: read the story of Harry Truman if you doubt it). Americans were certainly more exposed to the wiles of snake-oil salesmen, and were probably more taken in, but it also meant we led the world in cutting edge innovations and social progress at a rate unmatched in history (I’ve always thought Italy could have continued to lead the renaissance that they began, if it had not been for an unfortunate machiavellian streak in their cultural makeup).
STEP THREE – CONCLUSION: Put those first two points together and you get where I’m going here. We can look to avoid being taken in, OR we can look to see what is obvious to a more hopeful eye: there is at least SOME merit in the ideas of MDI, and if we all jump on the bandwagon long enough to think creatively together, one of us just MIGHT turn those tentative ideas into a refined system of technologies that offer a solution at this historical moment of opportunity (the next decade of American global-exports COULD be built on such a system).
STEP FOUR – APPLIED TO THE AIR CAR: What do you offer that should stop us from taking this one example (the air car) seriously? Some supposed “unchangeable physical laws”? You mean like the “natural law” prohibiting cars would ever drive faster than 100 miles an hour? Or the one against flying faster than the speed of sound? These were much more revered in their time than any you’ve mentioned? I take it you agree that engines could be driven by compressed air, so your objection is based entirely on what you take to be the efficiencies of storing sufficient supplies or air at sufficient levels of compression?
Your prohibitive natural law is about the efficiencies of compressing air? Please tell me you’re not buckling under and giving up all hope merely on that account are you? If you are, then saying it’s “natural law” is like saying that efficiencies can’t possibly be changed unless you already know how to change them. The history of American innovation proves that such do not make laws of nature. So, who cares if someone at MDI is a scammer (or not), or why their website is under construction, what matters here is there’s a path for success put on the table by someone thinking outside the box, and the society who looks at such paths as worth following with enthusiasm is the society destined for future greatness.
Your comments make you look like one of those Florentines all too willing to smirk at the possibilities hinted at in Da Vinci’s sketches, simply because not all would work and none had been proven in the field. That’s just not the attitude that made America great.
Whew! Is that clearer?
- Lauren D.
Hi LaurenD,
I can’t speak for dundich but I believe that he, like myself, is not the kind of people you suggest. I would say that the fact that we are looking at new technologies is evidence of that. As for myself, I want a car that does not use oil, does not pollute and is recyclable I just don’t see that car yet.
I own a diesel truck and a diesel car. The reason is they are more efficient than gas or hybrid cars. Also, I only burn soy biodiesel in them. So, I don’t use any fossil fuels. The emissions from biodiesel are much lower across the board than cars that burn fossil fuels. And even though they aren’t any more recyclable than other cars, diesels last a lot more miles than gas engines do so they aren’t recycled as often.
If I didn’t have to drive so far I would have a battery-powered car. A good solution in my mind because they can run on clean windmill power and batteries are almost 100% recyclable and in the US are almost 100% recycled.
I’m buying my electricity from Green Mountain Energy, which, on my plan, uses only windmills to generate the electricity I use. So, probably more than most people, I am, as much as reasonably possible, where you want America to go.
Now to my two points:
1) I can’t scream this loud enough – MDI has recognized the failure of their “air car” and has added an internal combustion engine to the system.
2) You mentioned Da Vinci; it took 500 years for many of his ideas to come into common use. Perhaps you are right, in the year 2500 years we may have workable air cars. But, just as Da Vinci’s designs could never have worked with the materials and technologies available at the time, air cars cannot work with the materials and technologies available today.
3) I see a lot of talk here, but is anybody doing anything with their hands or their money to move in the direction you suggest?
Kevin
@ Laureen D
I must say that I am quite impressed by your argumentation. Of course, I as a foreigner who uses English as a tool of international discussion, could not cope with the eloquence of your posting, but I will still try to make myself clear.
First of all, I have no personal interest in MDI’s activities. After I had seen one of their PR-movies on TV, I was interested like anybody else in this new technology. It sounded all so reasonable and promising and believe me, I am not a person who is not open to any new idea, even if it looks unrealistic in todays view. But I am also a man who worked all his life in the field of mechanical engineering and I like to check what I am supposed to believe.
Since I have a had worked for years in the field of high pressure equipment and since I know how to estimate the power needed to operate a road vehicle, I started to make some calculations which ended in the conclusion, that MDI’s vehicles are able to drive, but that they will never reach the parameters which they are using in their propaganda. Ok, you can tell me that my formulas are wrong or my assumptions not correct. Well, the proof for that would be very easy. All they have to do is to build a car exactly to their technical parameters – as there are: size, weight, air bottle size and pressure and have it tested by a neutral authority. No need to say that the ambient conditions, especially the air temperature must also meet actual requirements (f.i. temperature below freezing point).
I waited for such a test some time. All I found in the internet were little films showing an aircar driving around MDI’s premisses and a bunch of happy investors who put their noses near the exhaust pipe, looking very content about the natural fact that their was nothing coming out but clean, fresh air. They should have put their noses at the exhaust of the power station which produced the driver power for the compressor, or the Diesel Engine at the air filling station. And one should have told them that the power needed for the compression of the air was much higher then the one of a conventional car engine.
My main argument against the air car concept is the need of filling stations with an enormous power requirement. A normal gasoline station delivers a liquid of high thermal combustion energy into the cars tank. It takes about 1 1/2 minutes to fill a tank with a little pump. To charge the tanks of an air car, you have to produce all the energy at site, because air at ambient pressure does not contain any energy. The driver of such a filling compressor will have a few hundreds of kilowatts and if you want to go out of the city you will need a new filling after having driven about 100 Miles.
Talking about the difference between Europeans and Americans in the acceptance of new technologies. I can not see too much difference there. And believe me: There are physical laws which might be overruled once by human science, but some will not. At least not by MDI.
Thanks kevin,
Appreciate the comments, but I don’t understand why you’re “screaming” point number one at all: if by adding an internal combustion engine you mean adding a generator to run a compressor, then that would still not mean “failure”, depending on its specs — unless you’ve got figures specifying that the consumption and emissions levels of a generator approach those of traditional I.C. motors. If not it might still prove a huge leap forward, and in the end might be eliminated entirely by improvements in compression storage technologies.
As for your second point, I’m hoping that’s a joke? Let’s see, how many engineers put how many man hours into those Da Vinci designs during the first 450 of those five hundred years? And what theoretical insights did they have to work with?
I take it as uncontroversial that a helicopter in the year 1500 was a bit further out of reach then, than a more powerful compressed air storage system is today. But maybe you’re serious in this apparent disagreement?
Point number three is well taken, though I imagine at least some here are more than merely bystanding. As for me, I’ve been working on some new implementations of old ideas in air conditioning so that I can get completely off the grid (I live on a sailboat, so not an unrealistic goal). It’s not much, but then I don’t have the resources for much else.
But even talk can be useful if it gets the right person thinking I suppose.
- Lauren
Dundich,
I really do understand your point if you’re saying they may not have a car that lives up to their hype, yet. I’m sure you know far more than I about the technical engineering (I’m not an engineer, just a housewife). But I still don’t see why you invoke some natural limit, some law of nature, as a final limit on efficiency — it seems your only evidence is the current efficiencies. Is that right?
For me, if someone had an aircar that ran even 75 miles after charging four hours at home, I’d be thrilled for now and look forward to the same sort of improvements in efficiency that the I.C. car went through in its first 100 years. Is THAT more limited prospect truly ruled out by ‘natural law’; I can’t believe it is.
If your purpose was truth in advertising you could make that point while still embracing the near-future potential for aircar technologies.
Certainly there are other options (traditional battery-electric for example); but I just don’t think we’re at the point where we should be picking the final winner, or accepting failure.
By the way your English is quite good (I thought you were a native speaker).
- Lauren
please everybody try not to fall off the edge of the earth today – another “natural” yet man made “law” – lets face it the frontiers of technology grow to encompass the dreams of man.
I for one dream of a world where resources and information are shared and all life is valued equally.
Others for years have dreamt of vehicles for people – powered by air.
Jules Verne envisaged a ship which travelled beneath the sea.
Asimov envisaged AI.
Dare I say Star Trek popularised the personal communicator – now cellphone.
I think the point re MDI is now:
- do you have the resources of the Tata empire?
- would the Tata spend the massive amounts involved in acquiring their licence if the tech was not real? Do they not know what you do?
- The Tata are renowned for their business acumen and pride themselves on ethics and responsible corporate citizenship – are you calling them liers too?
- Do you realise who Tata are and how enormous they are in auto industry?
- The indian and chinese auto markets make the US market look sad and prime for rot and collapse (unfortunately as with other sectors)
- Tata’s billion euro plus acquisition of Corus Steel in the previous week – was this also some type of scam? Is steel from Corus not real steel?
- wake up or sleep forever but be careful what you say.
Again ALL RESPECT to Tata & MDI for their leadership at this time which is so important to our planet and likewise to anyone who can even just keep an open mind. . . .
@ Mr T
“Again ALL RESPECT to Tata & MDI for their leadership at this time which is so important to our planet and likewise to anyone who can even just keep an open mind. . . .”
OK. I will be quiet for while. And I will be waiting for the result. First I want to see the new website if MDI and then – with the enormous wealth of Tata it will be no problem to keep a promise by MDI repeated since 2001 – I will look at the car which meets al the promised specifications. Range, speed, safety, maintenance costs, winter operation and – last but not least – the planned filling station concept.
If all the promises which had been used in numerous TV-Spots and technical publications are fulfilled, I will apologize. But please keep in mind that I am 74 years old. I dont have all the time to wait…
Mr Dundich – thankfully I believe that you too will see your dream become reality.
Peace on Earth.
MrT
I read on MDI’s website yesterday that the car still needs two years of development, according to MDI. And, if it turns out, in the end, to be a internal combustion, fossil fuel burning, hybrid then it’s not an “air car” just like current hybrids are not electric cars. And if it’s not an air powered car as reported at the top of this string, I’ve been pulled into this by a lie.
Nobody seems to know what exactly the agreement between the two companies is. There may be no funds to MDI, it may be that Tata simply purchased the manufacturing agreements that MDI has claimed to have in order to more easily manufacture Tata’s products in other countries.
Despite the big contract news, it is impossible to determine if anything has changed at MDI.
Hi Kevin,
did you see this video of 2004 ? If not, please listen carefully to the things which are said. Its incredible how they stick to their concept, promising the Minvan to be on the road at end of 2004.
But I must say that I admire the way they manage to keep this thing going over so many years. That needs a special talent too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iXrM02g_yc&eurl=
From what I see and have read here. There some of you who have stock in oil or Bio-fules, and a lot of greed. I am all for the air motors.
Bert,
So am I (all for the air motors). The problem is – I can’t buy one.
They’ve been marketing this thing for 10 years now and their latest press releases say they only need two more years of “development”. Which is what they said 10 years ago.
We all want an air car. An air car just doesn’t seem to exist.
An alle die meinen das,daß Fahrzeug in den USA erfunden wurde ist auf den Holzweg. Der Antrieb und die Idee stammt und ist aus Niederbayern!!! genau aus Deggendorf!! also zukunftsweisende Technologien kommen nicht immer aus den USA . Aber das selbe hatten wir ja schon mal in den 40iger Jahren !!!!!
@kevin
did you see the new forum of MDI?
http://air-car-concept.bb-fr.com/MDI-Automobiles-c1/MiniCATs-f2/acheter-une-miniCATs-t39.htm
I think that if one knows to read between the lines, one will know that there will NEVER be such a thing like an air car (Besides the prototypes in France which are only produced to catch more investors and shoot a few more meaningless little movies showing little cars driving around).
How come the “official website” of mdi http://www.mdi.lu is still “under construction”?
In some way I admire the Negre-Family for their cleverness. The contract with the Indians was not a bad idea. But I feel sorry for those who fall in the trap and loose money (and hope).
@ stephan
ich weiß ja nicht, woran’s liegt, entweder hast Du die Texte nicht gelesen oder Dein Englisch reicht nicht aus, um zu verstehen, worum es hier geht. Also:
hier geht’s um eine FRANZÖSISCHE Erfindung eines luftgetriebenen Autos. Nach meiner Meinung läßt sich damit nicht viel anfangen, wegen der hohen Energieverluste und der Unmöglichkeit, ein Tankstellennetz zu installieren.
Was die Deggendorfer erfunden haben, weiß ich nicht. Gehört hab ich davon bisher noch nichts. Dafür wird es ja wohl auch einen Grund geben
@ potential investors of the “air car project”
here are few typical quotes fom the website http://www.theaircar.com:
***************************************************
MDI is among the fastest growing segments of the stock market (new technologies such as: Jet engine airplanes, Computers, Biochemistry, genetics,…). It’s an investment of high return , because of its novelty and exclusiveness and low risk because the initial investment is very low.
We also think that this is the most appropriate moment for two reasons. The first is that we are prepared to sell large shares in the company for a reasonable price. And the second is that at the present time we have enough guarantees that the product is a reality. We don’t only have drawings, we have photos.
In the countries where manufacturing licenses have already been sold, production will begin immediately after the “mother” factory in France has begun its production. If we don’t already have associated manufactures in a country the car will be there sooner or later.
*************************************************
“we have photos!” How does that sound to you?
Two years form now I will be ready for one. I have talked to my brother, Who is a mechanic (45 years of experience)with one of the fire departments in the state of Georgia USA. If the car dose not come with an air compressor that runs off air, we have come up with an alternate form of refilling the tanks while driving using the onborad compressor.
I just don’t understand the Negativity here. Its not about money or energy. Its about preserving the planet for future generations.I for one would like to see my Grandchildren be able to go outside to play with using a sun block that rates in the thousands(lol) I am not kidding. Don’t know if ya ll realize this but by the year 2036 if things keep going the way they are now about 45 %of the Ozone will be gone and all low lying coastal areas will be flooded. I know for a fact that one area, South Florida USA from Fort Pierce Across to the Fort Myers are will no longer exist, That means all the Sea Board areas on Earth, by the way. That is if we are not hit by an Astorid by then.
@ Bert
we are all concerned about the future of our earth. But I must tell you that the “air car” will not help in “preserving our planet” as you call it.
If you want to reduce harmful pollution, you must reduce the production of energy. One way is to built a car which uses less fuel. An air car needs more energy than a conventional car WITH THE SAME PERFORMANCE, because of the losses caused by compressing the air. There is just one argument which could be used for the air car. When it is possible to brake with the compressor and pumping air in the storage container. But this does not make up for the losses and the benefit will be rather marginal.
I would like to know how you run the onboard compressor during driving the car. Using braking power is one possibility, but that will not be enough.
I doubt that you will succeed. The frenchman tells us since 8 years that the air car will soon enter production. But I guess HE knows that this car will never be produced. Neither in Europe nor in India.
Hi Bert,
I think we are all with you; we wouldn’t be on this site if we didn’t care about our planet’s future.
Let me try to explain the “negativity”.
I have a magnet you can put on your fuel line that will allow your car to run without fuel and therefore produce zero emissions, problem solved. I can send you a photograph of my car running without fuel and I can send you a video of my car running without fuel. I can also sell you a license to manufacture my magnet invention, which will ready for volume manufacturing in two years.
I thing you have to believe in my product now (or at least believe in it when you see the pictures and video) because my product has everything going for it that MDI’s has except you don’t need air compressors. You must now invest your money and get on websites and generally talk-up my product that will save the world.
Now some “dumb” scientists and engineers may say that my product won’t work and that cars can’t run without fuel, don’t listen to them they are just NEGATIVE! You and I together can change the way people think of cars and save the world from global warming.
Those same people, like this dundich guy, will tell you we should concentrate our energies and money on solutions that will actually work rather than on things that negative thinking people tell you won’t work.
But I say: let the ozone burn and the ice caps melt while I further develop my product, sell licenses to manufacture my product and sell stock in my company. How many shares should I put you down for?
Hi dundich,
I saw the MDI guys on a “future car” television show. I think the old man must be losing his wits to age because he said: The car fills-up it’s tanks while driving and can provide electric power your home (from the compressed air) when you’re not driving. What an amazing car!
@ kevin
You better watch out. Are you sure that all people in this forum will understand the ironical meaning of your “magnetic fuel saving” gimmick? Did you get offers for shares already? Who knows – after all you have not only drawings but also fotos…
It just makes me mad to see how many TV-Stations and Print medias are still praising the “zero-emission car”.
Anyway, I liked your satirical approach to the subject.
Seriously wake UP!
The MDI car is real and already compresses its own compressed air when driving – yes thats right look at the design before making fools of yourselves Dundich et al – its a dual energy block – runs on any fuel & compressed air, it drives and compresses at the same time – I have explained this before – are you listening or are your heads back in the sand?
There is no scam – if you think there is please telephone Mr Tata and advise him that he and his esteemed engineers are wrong and shouldnt have invested many $euro$ – quick save them before they lose their enormous fortune (hahahaha) – what makes you people sitting in your little houses think that you know more than the Tata? I think you are making complete fools of yourselves and sound more and more like the grumpy old men it seems that you may be.
By keeping an open mind and contacting the actual informed entities – eg the people who are building factories etc around the world – I have learnt much and would encourage you to do the same – as there is much that you clearly dont know and could learn.
I am not going to waste my time with mad skeptics such as yourselves but will simply point you towards the truth whenever you are being TOO STUPID and I feel embarrassed for humanity.
One thing you all seem to miss is the MDI engine can use petroleum or biofuel – in fact whatever fuel you can get – can be burned in the engine and this produces – energy (for high speed and high distance travel) and compressed air (for later low speed and low distance travel) – IS THAT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND? No compressor required – no filling station required – just a fuel of some type and an MDI vehicle. Read it slowly Dundich etc – this is how it works and no matter how skeptical and critical you are – THIS IS HOW IT WORKS. Lets please stop wasting time and energy on such waffle and idiocy – it is sad and embarrassing that you cant see the reality of MDI due to your own paranoia and programming.
Please put your minds to greater works than pointless and false criticism of others who are doing their best while you lie in your puddle of crude oil and irrattionally criticise the sound and proven technology from MDI.
PS: I have told you before that this engine will power your house – so why are you suprised to see it on an internet interview of Mr Guy Negre? Get ready – here it comes!
Pity the Fools
MrT
@Mr T.
I was one of the FEW here who argued, repeatedly, for greater patience and support for MDI — I realize it is a developing technology and the details aren’t perfect yet, and believe it may be a promising starting point for further refinement.
HOWEVER, THIS LAST POST BY MrT is entirely INTELLECTUALLY DISHONEST. And I, for one, don’t like being lied to.
MrT. calls people “stupid” and “fools” for not seeing the fact that this is (of course) a duel-energy engine, with
“No compressor required – no filling station required”.
Hmmm, let’s compare that with information CURRENTLY DISPLAYED ON THE MDI WEBSITE:
“Refilling the car will, once the market develops, take place at
adapted PETROL STATIONS to administer compressed air.
In 2 or 3 minutes, and at a cost of approximately 1.5 Euros,
the car will be ready to go another 200-300 kilometres.
As an viable alternative, the CAR CARRIES A SMALL COMPRESSOR
which can be connected to the mains (220V or 380V) and
refill the tank in 3-4 hours.”
So, MrT, are people STUPID for believing their website? Or FOOLS for expecting intellectual HONESTY from people like you?
Why not try the honest approach, it might work: for example, you might explain that MDI ran into technical challenges which they decided to meet by modifying the design to make it a hybrid motor (if that’s the story), or …..? BUT TELL US THE TRUTH, AND YOU MIGHT FIND AN ARMY OF BLOGGING ADVOCATES/ACTIVISTS, rather than skeptics.
(and as for your grumpy old men comment, I’m a woman and rarely grumpy, so stop replacing argument with ad hominem epithets, they’re nonsense.)
Sincerely, un-grumpilly,
Lauren D.
um that is a total misrepresentation of what was said:
“yes thats right look at the design before making fools of yourselves Dundich et al ”
is clearly an attempt to assist Mr Dundich (who has stated that he is an older man) to not make a fool of himself – as has been discussed previously – it doent call anyone a fool – however if you were to watch a bit more of the 80’s tv show – The ATeam – what country are you from?Perhaps you never received the Ateam programming? If you were familiar with the show you would know that the term “fool” is applied very generously by MrT to all and sundry and is not at all used in an offensive way but more like “dude” or “man” – as MrT (B.A Baracus) is quite a forthright and up front character.
and as for the word stupid – this is applied only in the following context:
“whenever you are being TOO STUPID” – which clearly is referring to the act of being stupid temporarily – not stating that a person is generically stupid.
This is all semantics – the point – if you re-read this entire post as I have – is that Mr Dundich (retired design engineer for high pressure compressors and gas plants) is clearly an intelligent man with a lot of experience in this industry/field and yet even he who shares the MDI dream of an “air car” cant be supportive of their efforts but continues to pull apart at the details.
The currency of posted MDI information has also been discussed on this post and I for one accept the explanation I have been given. Looking over it I also see that there is new information available on links within this post (one in particular from a major tv network) which suggest the technology may have progressed beyond the filling station concept of many years ago. Thus no in answer to your question:
“So, MrT, are people STUPID for believing their website? Or FOOLS for expecting intellectual HONESTY from people like you?”
People once armed with the facts are stupid only if they want to be and generally this is a short term affliction – a type of irrational brain fever – perhaps brought on by the paranoid and predatory nature of existance in these complex and difficult times . They, like the entire world will always be referred to as “fools” in the A-Team context as this is a generic usage and not a serious critique.
Of course being a woman you couldnt possibly take offence at a comment made specifically towards a man – this is clearly not directed at you – its great that you are rarely grumpy – clearly grumpy old man is not a phrase which you will ever think is referring to you.
The below is really odd:
“HOWEVER, THIS LAST POST BY MrT is entirely INTELLECTUALLY DISHONEST. And I, for one, don’t like being lied to.”
My intention is to unearth the truth – there are a lot of lies that I have seen posted here – as far as I know NOTHING i have written even verges onto being a lie. Please point out the proven discrepancy in what I have said – as I have depended on reliable third parties for all information and as far as I can tell it is all true. But if its not true – I REALLY WANT TO KNOW!!! Therefore PLEASE if you know something that I dont please tell… If we are being lied to I will be the first person to blow the scam wide open! However I am certain that MDI are very real and that their engine will be available to the public very soon. I am also certain that there is a lot of misinformation out there – and also some old information ….. please help me to sift through the garbage to find the gemstones!
Pity the “non-gender specific persons who dispute what seem to be facts”
MrT
OK I see all of your points but production of the car is not what is causing the majority of the enviro problems It is all the combustion motors (and lack of enough trees to consume the CO2) The rail ways the ships, airlines and the gas hogs on the road These are about 80% of the cause. What I am trying to say is that Factories and Production Plants are only a small majority of the problem.
Now remove the cars, trucks, buses, and maybe petrol powered personal boats, and who knows maybe even small Airplanes. It would lower world wide emissions by at the least 45% maybe more. There is an Environmental friendly and ozone safe ploy-urethane ( Which they make the bodies with). I know. I am having my house insulated with it.
@MrT
You continue to avoid my central point. Why?
INTELLECTUAL DISHONESTY can take more than one form:
(A) I might promise to deliver X, never deliver it, then lie about having delivered it.
(B) I might promise to deliver X, try to deliver Y instead (hybrid engine?), and then pretend I always/only promised to deliver Y.
I take it you’re speaking out for MDI in a way that amounts to (B).
THEIR WEBSITE still claims they are delivering a car that will charge from a petrol station or an onboard compressor, while you’re taking a dismissive attitude towards any who don’t get the “fact” that they’ve (only? always been?) offering a hybrid that charges up by burning fossil fuels in an internal combustion engine.
You sould like someone offering us (B) above. Tell me how I’m wrong about this, please, OR admit that the target has shifted and MDI is no longer even attempting to offer the car they once advertised (and sold to dealerships).
- Lauren D.
I saw the “Future Cars” show the other night and What they said is that they are DEVELOPING a compressor that will run off of air and will re compress the tanks while driving.
Dundich. If the car has an alternator(or maybe add one), Well then the compressor can be ran by using an AC/DC converter. and a pressure release switch.
wow thats quite intense – I didnt say grumpy – please dont bite me!
When I re-read this post and researched a bit to each side of the issues / debates / threads / links ; the story that emerged for me is not “either / or”.
For example: I would like to drive across America in an alternative fuel vehicle – would I use a compressed air only vehicle to do this? No it seems that I will need to acquire a dual energy MDI vehicle for that application. From what I have read this type of vehicle will be available soon and wont require filling stations as it can apparently efficiently use any fuel available – or so I am led to believe by reliable sources.
My cousin Jed on the other hand is a full time child carer or “house husband”. He lives in a small town/village where everything is pretty centralised. There is a good fast and regular rail service to the town and an airport only 20kms away. Jed is looking foward to the release of an “air only” MDI vehicle – he is guessing that the “air only” option will be a little cheaper to buy – as it seems less complex. For Jed’s use air only would seem perfect as he doesnt have to travel far and doesnt need to travel at high speed – his current large SUV is entirely wasted – it has only left his local area once in its 2year expensive life. As Jed’s wife used to work at the local gas station he is pretty sure they would be happy to install a MDI filling station if lots of locals got MDI cars. Otherwise he will just charge it at home using a small compressor which apparently does its work overnight.
As far as I can tell both Jed and I will BOTH be able to get the slightly different vehicles we desire through MDI eventually. Therefore in answer to your re-insinuation : No & No. As far as I can tell it can be both and doesnt have to be either /or as in dual energy OR air only. It seems that there will be “horses for courses” that is: different vehicles for different applications.
IF I am wrong please let me know – however there be no lies from here (as far as I know) & from here there be no lies (from what I can tell)!
As far as your concepts on Intellectual Dishonesty – interesting but in no way applicable in this instance as far as I can tell. I am always open to hints and snippets of the truth be it “the truth” of an individual or that accepted as reality so as to have balanced opinions with which to build my own truth.
Here’s to: no Wasted Time or Energy &Truth4All
MrT
Just to clear up one tiny confusion:
“a hybrid that charges up by burning fossil fuels in an internal combustion engine.”
Doesnt the MDI info say that it can burn any fuel eg BioFuels like Ethanol?
It seems that the MDI engine can use fossil fuels but can switch to alternatives like ethanol or biodiesel etc
This is I think the sort of flexibility we need to help the world shift off fossil fuels and onto alternatives. The compressed air is a great bonus for city driving isnt it? Of course it seems that if you never leave the city compressed air alone would be enough in this car. So maybe all that is required as they get cars out to us is that someone gets the biofuels out to us too?
BioFuelsRgood
MrT
@ MrT
1) The name of this thread is „an air powered car + it’s cheap“. All my comments referred to the so called “air car� of MDI only.
2) A hybrid car with a combustion engine driving a compressor which produces high pressure air with 300 bars and using this air to drive an air motor is such an absurd idea, that I am not discussing it. I do not need to know any technical details of the machinery to achieve this, because the facts of gas dynamics make such a system a waste of energy, because one will loose energy during compression. No invention can avoid this.
3) I find it rather ridiculous that you assume that everybody followed the change of Negre’s concept of drive from air to hybrid. Enter “air car� in the Google search line and look at the findings. Where is the “Only official website of MDI� http://www.mdi.lu? And who made the site http://www.theaircar.com?
I am sorry, but your long explanations did not change my opinion about the whole project. To me it just looks phoney. And the “hybrid� turn did not help to make it look better.
I just saw a nice news brief discribing the benefits of the production of an air car. I am not a scientist. But I am in the military. I deal with developmental ideas all of the time. And I do have a lot of money. So if any one is interested in mass ordering these cars, feel free to contact me.
ClevStar,
I’m very excited to hear that someone is ready to move on this opportunity. I expect to see all the people on this site place orders.
Are you looking to buy the hybrid or the air car?
Will you require any information before you buy?
For instance, will you want to know how many miles per gallon the hybrid gets? If it gets 30 mpg will you still want one?
Will you want to know how far the air powered one goes? If it goes three miles on a fill-up will you still want one?
And, PLEASE, let us know the price you are quoted and the delivery date you are promised.
Thank You,
Kevin
Kevin come now.
I myself have tried to order a decent amount of MDI vehicles but have been told they wont accept my final order untill delivery date is confirmed – I am happy with this as it makes sense and is very ethical. I also tried to order a vehicle to tow our caravan and was told this would come later, I guess most military applications would be bundled into this category too.
Of course MilSpec testing of components and consumables would assumedly need to be completed prior to military adoption. I bet the outcomes of this type of testing regime would be of interest to you Kevin & Dundich.
I hope to have my cars by 2008 /2009 which will be just in time for us to make a difference to the global energy crisis. One of the best things about the MDI engine and vehicle being that much less energy is used in their manufacture than with any other type of vehicles so input energy for manufacture is very low, which is great.
It seems that for city driving these MDI cars will do over 50kms using their (self compressed) reserves of compressed air. Too cool.
It seems that for highway and non city driving these MDI cars will use about 2litres of fuel (any fuel available eg ethanol or gasoline) for every 100kms travelled. Thats really exciting for us.
BioFuels4Peace
MrT
@ Mr T
quote
It seems that for highway and non city driving these MDI cars will use about 2litres of fuel (any fuel available eg ethanol or gasoline) for every 100kms travelled. Thats really exciting for us.
unquote
What do mean by the term “It seems”. To me it seems that you belong to the type of persons who believe anything which is printed. Well, I tell you that a car as described in the MDI infos will never be able to run with a consumption of 2 l/100 km. So you better don’t get too exited.
You find it “ethical” that they don’t except you order before they know a delivery date? I think that’s the least one can expect of a company who promises since years that the production will start soon.
What I do not find ethical is that they are issuing wrong performance data and raise false hopes in people who do not have the knowledge to estmate the correctness of this data. Like the 2 liters/100 km you mentioned.
@ Mr T
I guess you know as a prospective buyer of the aircar. There are TWO homepages now which both refer to MDI but contain quite different infos
http://www.theaircar.com and http://www.mdi.at
I find this rather confusing. Could you explain?
@ Mr T
Sorry, its not http://www.mdi.at but http://www.mdi.lu (for Luxemburg)
Hello dundich, I’m trying to figure out the calculations but don’t know a lot of the required physics. 90 liters of air at ~296 atm and 70 degrees F seems like it would contain a fair amount of energy, but I’m not sure how to calculate it. Could you send me a link to a page where I can learn? I’m still trying to be skeptical…
@ bobshush
First I must apologize for a mistake in an earlier posting. The performance data of MDI refer to a tank volume of 300 liters, not 90. The free air volume (at ambient conditions) is 90 cubic meters. That’s how the mistake happened.
I give you a few links concerning the air car.
1) A detailed report on calculation of power and efficiency.
http://www.efcf.com/e/reports/E14.pdf
2) A report of a french institute
http://www.theaircar.com/Mines_reports.html
3) A “Fan homepageâ€? of MDI – disciples
http://cyber-media.com/aircar/
What gets me is the half-true and purposely wrong infos about performance.
Typical examples:
They mention max. speed AND max. range in one sentence, insinuating that the car can drive 200 km with 110 km/hr.
They ignore important things like space heating in winter, electric appliances etc.
Their performance is based on 300 liters of compressed air. The gif-picture of the MiniCat shows two air containers with about 30 cm dia and 1,4 m length, which means about 180 liters of air.
A compressor to charge the 300 liter tank in 3 minutes would need around 500 kW driver power.
All this (and many other things) give to me the impression of a phoney business, which is run in a very clever way since years.
The propaganda is well done and for somebody who does not have the possibility to check the data, the whole project looks just great. Even TV-Stations and renowned Newspapers got impressed and published what they had been told, without checking.
One more thing makes me wonder about the people who are longing to get an air car. Are there no doubts at all about servicing this thing? A multistage compressor/expander with intercooling/interheating is much more complex than a standard gasoline or diesel engine.
Several things:
@dundich
1) Surely max. speed and max distance are different things? I can run very fast when I need to but I get tired easily, and if I pace myself I can walk for miles. as a new engine design, surely both of these measurements warrant mentioning? Please correct me if I’m wrong.
2) If I have an engine supplying energy to the car, it seems like a fairly trivial design question to come up with some method of harnessing some of that energy to run heating and the electrical subsystems of the car. The cheap air conditioning seemed more like a pleasant side effect of the engine when I was reading, similar to how we use some of the heat emitted by modern engines for heating in the winter.
3) I’m not certain which photos you are using for reference, could you please send a link? In the absence of photos, it seems more plausible that (perhaps) there are three tanks are used, each containing ~98.9 liters using your measurements. At .3 meters wide, three of them would be a little under a meter side by side, well under the width of most cars I see on the road today. Also this would allow for the 300 liters claimed in the articles.
4) 500kW * 3 minutes = 90 MegaJoules, which seems like quite a lot of power available, especially if the engine is highly efficient. Have I missed something fundamentally important?
5) The website states that the three minute refill would require special pumping stations scattered across the nation, rather than being the norm for home refill, which the site says could take ~4 hours, using an onboard pump connected to a home power supply. Therefore, I do not understand the objection that a 500kW pump would be required, as the would be inside specialized service stations, and upkeep would not be the responsibility of the average driver. Could you please explain?
6) You seem to claim (and again, correct me if I am wrong) that the concept and execution of this engine is fundamentally flawed due to the laws of physics. (”300 liters of air with 300 bars contain the energy of 1 to 1,5 Liters of gas. And thats not enough.”, “Anybody who knows about thermodynamics can proove [sic] in minutes that the ‘aircar’ is a fake”, etc.) However, the first article you sent me explaining the physics of the device concludes “All in all, the compressed air car seems to be a viable option for clean and
efficient short range transportation”, the second reports “The global concept permits a significant autonomy of the MDI compressed air car”, and the third states “…what MDI is trying to achieve, which, in our personal view, is ecologically and socially very positive, exciting, and in our view, has an excellent chance of success.” Given that these are the very articles you sent me to trying to (I assume, based on your previous posts) disprove to me the validity of this engine directly contradict your own analysis, could you please explain this discrepancy?
@everyone
7) A note on language: Phrases such as “a phoney business”, “The propaganda is well done” (dundich) and “whenever you are being TOO STUPID” (MrT) are not conductive to a reasonable and open exchange of ideas, as they tend to put people in an emotional and defensive state, rather than encouraging research to back up claims made and constructive debate.
Last, sorry if I seem to be coming down a bit hard on you dundich, but you seem to have analyzed a lot of information about this, and as I do try to verify what I read as best I can, as my only source of skeptical information I am predisposed towards questioning you a bit more intensely than normal.
Best Regards,
Bobshush
@ bobshush
First of all I want to tell you how glad I am to meet somebody here who understands what I am talking about. I will try to answer your questions; even it is not always easy to make things clear. How I got into that whole air car discussion? Well. I saw one of these TV-reports about Negré’s inventions on a German TV-channel. I was quite impressed, but since I had once made a study about the use of compressed air as an energy storage and remembered the poor efficiency of such a system, I opened an excel sheet and entered a few equations. Those for the driving power requirements for cars, those for compression and expansion energy of compressed air, some of the Joule Thomson cooling effects of air – and after having made a few spreadsheets with different speeds, and car parameters, I was damn sure that there must be something wrong with the data which had been mentioned during the film,
Since then I am watching the different infos which can be googled out of the internet and I must say it again: the more I read and the more of the little films I watched the more I got suspicious about the seriousity of the whole thing. Mind you, I have no personal interest in the whole thing, besides maybe the one: to warn people who get too enthusiastic about the thing and might even spend money as investors or good-hearted supporters.
Of course one can drive a car with compressed air. I need no proof of that. But the little movies showing MDI’s air cars driving around on the factory ground are not showing anything else than this undebatable fact.
Let’s just pick out a few items (there are too many to put in one posting).
I want to start with the 8 minute film which is mentioned on the “fan page�:
Before you open it, you read on top of it the following:
Here’s a video report about the MDI Air Car. Yes, a car that runs on air. Compressed air. The pressure inside the petrol tank is a staggering 300 bar. One tank of compressed air will enable you to drive for 4500 kilometers. That’s about 2800 miles. Watch the video.
Well, we both know that this statement did not come from MDI, but it shows, how people understand the infos which they get. In the film, a guy brags about a cold aluminium motor without internal combustion needed. Later he explains how one can drive with the hybrid version from LA to New York – with one tank filling. Gasoline of course, but what people understand – see above.
You are right that the reports I sent you the links for mention that the system can work. But you should also read between the lines. The French report mentions 93 km range with 300 W electric consumption at 50 km speed. When the heating power is taken from the stored power, it would bring the range down to 35 km. All this based on 3 x 114 liters. With 300 liters this would still be reduced by another 14 percent.
Another thing which really gets me is the mix-up of the air car with the hybrid version. What do I need an air drive to go from LA to New York? And how does that system work? Is there a compressor which fills the pressure bottles and the air drives the air motor? That would be an energetical madness. And all this with fuel consumptions of 1.8 or 2 liters per 100 km? I’m sorry, but after having worked for 45 years as a designer of gas turbines, compressors and aircraft jet engines it is just too hard for me to believe that. I might not be such a renowned genius like Mr. Negré, but there are certain limits in engineering…
Or take the air conditioning matter. The average power at 50 km/hr is about 3 kW. A fraction of this will be available as cooling medium. Is that really sufficient to keep a car cool inside? I doubt it. How will the stage inter-heaters work? In summer they will freeze up on the outside because of air humidity and in winter they will not work with the low ambient temperatures.
Talking about the “home filling� of the cars pressure tank from the electric plug in the garage. To fill the tank in 5 hours, I need an electric compressor driver of approx 6.5 kW. Where is that situated in the car? It is quite a sizable thing of equipment. Did you see the poor infos about “engine� in the new “official� homepage of MDI? I am sorry, but I can not change my mind. It all reminds me too much of the alchemist who promised the king that he will soon be able to produce gold and such lived a good live for years. In case of the air car it is quite long time already.
Now to the questions of your posting:
1) Surely max. speed and max distance are different things? I can run very fast when I need to but I get tired easily, and if I pace myself I can walk for miles. as a new engine design, surely both of these measurements warrant mentioning? Please correct me if I’m wrong.
You are right, but the way these infos are published give too often the impression that both the max. speed and max range can be reached simultanously. For example in the film mentioned above.
2) If I have an engine supplying energy to the car, it seems like a fairly trivial design question to come up with some method of harnessing some of that energy to run heating and the electrical subsystems of the car. The cheap air conditioning seemed more like a pleasant side effect of the engine when I was reading, similar to how we use some of the heat emitted by modern engines for heating in the winter.
It is not a trivial design if the complete energy which you produce is something like 3 kW. About the pleasant side effect of cooling please read above
3) I’m not certain which photos you are using for reference, could you please send a link?
There is an animated gif picture of the MiniCat on http://www.mdi.lu. If you split that file in its single frames and scale the printout, you get approx. the two containers with the mentioned dimensions. I do not agree that the size of these bottles is not a problem. They must be placed under the seats and must be well protected underneath to avoid rupture when going over an obstacle on the road…After all; these are high pressure tanks with 300 bars!!!
4) 500kW * 3 minutes = 90 Mega Joules, which seems like quite a lot of power available, especially if the engine is highly efficient. Have I missed something fundamentally important?
You are right. But it is not the power available in the bottles. This is 51 MJ. The driver power is of course only needed for the max pressure range (300/1). It could be reduced during loading to lower pressures during filling. But in any way, this is not just a gadget which one ads to a normal gasoline station. And it is quite expensive in purchase and service. I find it a bit amusing how some people talk about 300 bar compressors.
5) The website states that the three minute refill would require special pumping stations scattered across the nation, rather than being the norm for home refill, which the site says could take ~4 hours, using an onboard pump connected to a home power supply. Therefore, I do not understand the objection that a 500kW pump would be required, as the would be inside specialized service stations, and upkeep would not be the responsibility of the average driver. Could you please explain?
I just wanted to point to the fact that it will be almost impossible to install a useful net of filling stations – for cost AND energy reasons.
6) You seem to claim (and again, correct me if I am wrong) that the concept and execution of this engine is fundamentally flawed due to the laws of physics. (”300 liters of air with 300 bars contain the energy of 1 to 1,5 Liters of gas. And that’s not enough.”, “Anybody who knows about thermodynamics can proof [sic] in minutes that the ‘air car’ is a fake”, etc.) However, the first article you sent me explaining the physics of the device concludes “All in all, the compressed air car seems to be a viable option for clean and efficient short range transportation”, the second reports “The global concept permits a significant autonomy of the MDI compressed air car”, and the third states “…what MDI is trying to achieve, which, in our personal view, is ecologically and socially very positive, exciting, and in our view, has an excellent chance of success.” Given that these are the very articles you sent me to trying to (I assume, based on your previous posts) disprove to me the validity of this engine directly contradict your own analysis, could you please explain this discrepancy?
I can explain it like this:
a) The French report was obviously ordered by MDI. Some of the data had been provided by MDI. Even so, the results differ very much from the published data of MDI. Mind you: A 300 liter tank will drive an air car with 300 Watts electric consumption 81,5 km. That is about the published 80 km “non urban range� of the MiniCat.
b) The remarks on the “Fan page� have no significance for me.
Last, sorry if I seem to be coming down a bit hard on you dundich.
That’s OK with me. I’m not touchy.
I am looking forward to your reply.
Well the way I understood it from the MDI Website that you would be able to travel around 300 Miles on a full load of air. I have a couple of questions for the MDI staff, if they read this.
1). I suppose you have an alternator on this vehicle, so can youinstall a AC/DC converter and run the on-board air pump while driving ?
2).Will your motor power an out-drive on an average size Boat ?
3). Will this vehicle be able to pull a load(a trailer ) ?
In a very round-about way I found this page on the MDI website.
http://www.theaircar.com/tests.html
It seems to show the range of the current model (as it stands today) to be around eight miles on a 300 L tank. This range still sounds optimistic but makes more sense to me than most of the numbers I’ve seen elsewhere. The chart on the MDI webpage also indicates ways they might be able to improve the range in the future. But for now, the range looks like 8 miles to me.
If I worked three or four miles from home I might want one of these cars but I still suspect an electric car would use a lot less electricity to charge-up than the air-car would use to fill-up
@ kevin
The link you mention is quite old. I have a printout of January 2006 and even then it was not new. Besides, the only official homepage of MDI is http://www.mdi.lu. This was confirmed to me by MDI. After I had asked them them:
There exists a very detailed homepage: http://www.theaircar.com, which also refers to MDI, but has different infos (outdated?). This is quite confusing. Could you explain which infos are correct?
I received the following reply:
Monsieur,
Le site officiel de MDI est http://www.mdi.lu.
Les informations qui y sont données viennent directement de notre bureau d’étude.
Meilleures salutations
Annic NEGRE
I wonder how they will run their „big business“ with the Indian Company Tata, when they use nothing but French. But anyway, the report about the Tata deal disappeared from both homepages (theaircar and mdi), after it had first been propagated as a big issue. I wonder why (But I am not surprised)
@ Bert
Where did you read about a range of 300 miles with one tank filling? According the report of the “l’Ecole des Mines of Paris� about the expected performance of MDI’s air car the ranges for a car with an electrical facilities consumption of 300 Watts and a tank volume of 450 liters are:
20 km/hr speed: 91 miles
50 km/hr speed: 73 miles
For the 300 miles you mentioned the tank volume would need to be:
20 km/hr speed: 1480 liters
50 km/hr speed: 1851 liters
That is quite a lot of volume, don’t you think?
@ air car enthusiasts:
Did you read this sentence in the “official homepage�?
Based on this new Technology, MDI is now in the process of developing a “thermodynamic concept� that will enhance these results even further, over the next ten years, thus initiating a genuine energy revolution.
Over the next ten years…
Get it?
Wow sounds like some serious tech analysis is going on out there somewhere in internet land. Thats great.
If more independant someones can confirm they have driven one of these cars and know more about what is going on right now with the MDI technology that would be really good. I for one am happy with my understanding and being only as technically minded as the average nut I am just going to wait and see what happens in 2008. If I manage to get a car I will let you all know and Dundich I reckon you would have to come for a drive before we head off across america.
This is only the internet and I encourage you all to exercise your constitutional rights to free speech – political correctness is eroding some of the beautiful irregularities of human nature. If someone says something stupid please tell them and if someone tells you that something you have said is stupid please look at what you have said and see whether it is stupid. If what you said is not stupid then the other person is. Through this sometimes a little volatile process we find the real truth. I rekon we all have different backgrounds and levels of personal expression. I aint a scientist but I reckon I can tell reality from fantasy and can get my message across. PLEASE tell me if I ever say anything stupid and pull no punchs : this is important stuff and we all need to work together to filter out the garbage and reveal the gems. My ego can take some correction from anonymous bloggers when its a matter of global importance.
Now I’m off to fight for truth justice and the american way and will come back and check on your serious scientific discussions one day. I can tell you guys will work through the science stuff and this is all far beyond me so I cant comment intelligently on any of it so will just wait for my car and do cool stuff with it when I get it and maybe post some links. I can see it now: “Gone in 300psi!” & “Fear & Loathing in an air car!” & the JackAss movie “100 things not to do with an aircar!” & etc etc
Have fun and grow biofuels please!
LoveALLtheFOOLS (translation: love everyone)
MrT
@ those who are interested in a serious discussion
If one googels for „air car“, there are over a hundred thousand entries, which shows the big interest in that matter. It is quite understandable if one takes the promises of MDI for granted. And I understand if people wonder about my attempts to raise doubts about this marvellous and ingenious invention and ask what sense it would make to spend 10 years on something which could not succeed and knowing that. Well, I asked that myself and if I don’t want to be too hard on the French crew, I give them the credit that in the beginning they believed in it themselves. But what does one do if one finds out that the project one had put so much effort and hope turns into a flop? Stop it? After one has used so much money – and mainly money of people who one had convinced and who are waiting for a result? Or go on and build up a kind of aircar Disneyland with prototypes which are shown to the press, a test bed, a workshop and lots of PR.
The main reason for that “theory� is an article which had been published in September 2002 (!) on a German homepage which is bit similar to this one. You can look for it yourself and the google website-translator produces a reasonable English version (for those who do not understand German). The site is
http://www.brandeins.net/home/inhalt_detail.asp?id=342&MenuID=130&MagID=11&sid=su62218159624719017&umenuid=1
And here a translation of the part which could maybe explain the present “dilemma� of MDI:
— In an interview with the French car magazine “Le Quotidien Auto” the 60-years old design engineer Guy Nègre remembers: „My attempts in the formula 1 were a flop. With 52 I was ruined. Since my childhood I was occupied with engines. The only possibility of freeing me from my dilemma at that time was to face a still larger challenge.“
He decided to build a hundred percent pollutant-free car. One beyond smog, waste of fossil sources or greenhouse effect. Guy Nègre creates the enterprise MDI (Moteur Développment international), financed with private investors.
The rest of the article is like many others. Technically wrong explanations of the engine, the announcement that one can buy a turnkey production plant from MDI for 9,2 Million Euro and the promise that serial production of the car will start at the end of this year (2002 !). A max speed of 110 km and a driving range of 240 km are also mentioned.
I leave it to you to draw your own conclusions from the above.
correction
In my before last posting I had said that the Tata deal is not mentioned anymore on MDI’s homepage. I was mistaken. It still is.
@dundich
Saw it On Future Cars On the discovery chanel
The “future car” episode on Discovery Channel was incredibly inept, they said the air compressor was powered by air, implying a perpetual energy source. MDI never claimed to have an “air powered air compressor”, the reporter mis-understood how the engine works – it takes in outside air and mixes it with the compressed air to improve thermodynamics and keep the engine from freezing. Unfortunately, it doesn’t work well when the air is very cold.
Some posters seem to have confused metric and english measures – 200 to 300 Km is only 124 to 186 miles.
The “air car” has a reported price, range and performance similar to “neighborhood electric vehicles”. While it can go over 40 mph and exceed 120 miles per tank, it can’t do both at once. Maximum range is obtained at a leisurely 18 mph. Efficiency is much less than NEVs, as compressing the air creates waste heat, and at those pressures a lot of electricity is wasted as heat. According to another post, it takes 90 MJ of energy to compress a full tank of air but the tanks only store 51 MJ, meaning 39 MJ of waste heat!
It takes a lot of energy (and petroleum!) to make the carbon fiber tanks – it takes high temperature low oxygen ovens to carbonize plastic fibers to make carbon fiber, then the fibers must be bonded with plastic resins. At 4,500 psi, even a small crack in that tank would have an air jet roaring out at high velocities, presenting a serious hazard.
There are only 2 advantages over NEVs: the carbon fiber tanks will likely last longer than lead acid batteries, and the expanded air exhaust drops to near freezing temperatures, making air conditioning a cinch. The air car may find a modest market in sunny retirement communities.
To increase range and performance, a hybrid version powered by compressed air and burning fuel was introduced, but it isn’t quite as clean and is much more expensive. It might not burn as much fuel per mile as a standard IC engine car, as part of the energy could come from electrically compressed air, but it is less efficient than a “plug-in electric” hybrid and far less efficient than a battery electric – those compression heat losses are substantial. The energy density of compressed air is fairly low, making the tanks much bigger – and heavier – than the NiMH or LiIon battery packs used in electrics and electric hybrids. This will find a market mainly for people who fall for hype and don’t grasp the serious drawbacks inherent in the design.
To answer Berts questions:
1). “I suppose you have an alternator on this vehicle, so can youinstall a AC/DC converter and run the on-board air pump while driving ?”
Bad idea. Since the alternator presumably is driven by compressed air, the air motor and alternator loose some energy and the air compressor wastes approx. 1/3 of the remaining energy, doing so would dramatically cut your range.
2).”Will your motor power an out-drive on an average size Boat ?”
The motor could drive a variety of vehicles, but you need a big space for the tanks, and be willing to settle for “trolling motor” performance.
3). “Will this vehicle be able to pull a load(a trailer ) ?”
Are you kidding? It would be like pulling a trailer with a golf cart.
In one of the (too) many MDI video clips
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFbKINlXzRk
I found the following data for the MiniCat (converted to metric):
storage volume: 200 liters
pressure 300 bars
urban range 150 km
and the following statement of Mr. Négre himself:
“The costs for outdoor filling we don’t know exactly, because we have yet to design the filling station�.
After so many years they did not design a high pressure filling station for that car? Do you believe that? Or in other words – if you would be in Négres’s position, would you wait for years with designing such a vital part of the project or at least asking specialized firms for a detailed quotation? I’m convinced you would. But what would you do, if it turns out that the exorbitant costs of an air compressor station with a power requirement in the range of about 650 kW jeopardize your project? You would keep that to yourself? Well, that’s what Négre is obviously doing.
From MDI’s homepage (w/o comment):
Compressed Air Storage System is simple and MDI is planning to install a network of such “Filling Stations� where vehicles can be refilled, in three minutes, by connecting the Car Tanks to the outlet from the Storage System.
No extreme is good: Why not start using clear advantages of compressed air for energy staorage – and recuperation?
At least for improving standard car energy budget, where its advantage in saving breaking energy is ONLY positive with NO negatives?
@ Martin
Correct. This, in my opinion, could be the only advantage in compressed air energy storage. But I am still waiting for this feature to be mentioned in MDI’s publications. Or did I misss something there?
I could even imagine to add such a recuperating braking system to a conventional car, with an air motor-compressor system which feeds the baking energy back to the wheels. I this case, the bad efficiency would not matter so much, because I am getting at least something back from energy which is normally lost.
@cm
As for the load. Well I didn’t think so you could but ……Well you don’t know till ya ask do ya?
As to the AC/DC converter. My brother is a Very Up to date and good mechanic, anythings possible. Look at Plasma Drives 15 years ago they were Scifi today they have pro-to types. The laws of thermodynamics(as we know them) may apply today, but what will tomorrow bring. 30 years ago did anyone really think you would have a computer on your desk ? Just wait till more Technology comes out of area 51 LOL.
@ Mashiur Rahman Khan
Interesting point of view. Maybe you go a bit more in detail?
@ vwi3yxo5y0
6opis99no xx3y5 lk uioper!!!
Hi Martin and dundich,
I wouldn’t be so sure about “ONLY positive with NO negatives” when considering compressed air energy recovery systems.
I speculate, with the really poor efficency of “air”, the weight of the air compressor/motor, storage tank(s) and control system may cause the car to consume more energy than can be recovered by the braking energy recovery air system.
Your mileage may be worse with braking energy recovery than without it!
Hi Bert,
It can be amazing to see what the future brings, however, neither plasma drives or desktop computers violate the laws of thermodynamics.
While we don’t know what the future will bring, we do know some of the things the future will not bring. Efficencies over unity, free energy (unless you harvest it yourself) and air powered cars.
Hi All
Have a look on the web for the fastest bicycle in the world 70 mph on 400 watts of human power.
Even if compressing air is only 50 % efficient you can build a wind turbine at home, if the compressed air is free who cares if its inefficient.
If you have a wind turbine at home the wind turbine will have the potential to provide a 24 hour cycle storing compressed air in a tank for you to move to a high pressure tank on your vehicle.
You only need one hour of driving time on average to get to work. If the required pressure was not achieved in the tanks by 3 am then electricity could be used to top it up so you can fill up before you go to work. Its simple and easy to achieve and we can all make our own harware as it is not high tech.
Any thing is possible its just funding, motivation and time that we all lack.
I still don’t see why you’d want to waste energy compressing air with an electric engine instead of just using the electric engine directly as the car’s motor. Battery technology has come a long way since the late 90s when this project began. Is there some great advantage to compressing the air and using that as energy storage instead of using batteries as energy storage? It’s not as though those filled compressed air tanks are exceptionally lighter or safer than today’s best batteries at 200Wh/Kg energy density.
I have just come across this website, following an article published in one of the local (Melbourne) dailies. The claims in this article may be of interest. They are similar to the original claims technically as published on your site, which I need not repeat here. However, this time round the “air-car” will not be made in India, but in Australia. As usual, the roll-out will take 5 years and cost $A5 billion, presumably of local investor’s money. Mr. Negre, who has just toured selling the project, claimed in all modesty that the vehicle, with an air heater, will travel many thousands of kilometres on one tankful of fuel (could it be unobtainium?).
To Australians such proposals are not new. In the 1970s an “inventor” named Sarich flogged the idea of a new rotary engine, which was revolutionary in having fewer moving parts. We never discovered why having fewer moving parts was so beneficial, but that was a minor problem, because Sarich never demonstrated a working prototype, not even a drawing. He would sketch, on request, something resembling a engine, but it had no valves or fuel system. He managed to interest the huge steel company BHP in the project. We used to say jokingly that early on Sarich had the experience and BHP the money, while later on Sarich had the money and BHP was left with the experience.
Today, this prediction has come true. Sarich now is an investment company, never having produced a working automotive engine.. It is, however, a public company with some $A 40 million share capital. As an engineer myself, I have good advice for anyone wanting to invest money in yet another scheme like the air car. If you look up perpetual motion on your search engine, you will find numerous attractive solutions. None of these were meant for fitting to a motor car, because motor cars didn’t exist at the time these “solutions” were put forward. The advantage of listing them is because it allowed an explanation in every case as to why they couldn’t and didn’t work.
Here is another suggestion that won’t work, but is very like those proposed by ITMIDI. When you travel by car next time, stick one of the toy windmills out of the window, and attach a small generator to it. If you believe that the energy produced by this generator comes to you free of charge, enrol in a first year physics course at the nearest technical school.
As for me, yes, you are right. It is all sour grapes; I had the idea of patenting a car that runs entirely on bullshit, but I now see it has already been done. DRAT!
i have better idea put mini wind mills on top of car that run to a rechargable battery engine
This is great. It is about time for a new source of entergy. Oil is just to high. What about refill exchange compressed air tanks?
How much gasoline will be used on a 600 mile trip?
When will these cars be avilable in th United States?
Hi: Informed, Uniformed, wellfromed, formica, MrT, LaurenD, Ashish Gupta, Bert
Well it’s been a long time now (close to two years) are all of you still buying this weapons grade bull sh_t?
The latest news on the French Air car is that Tata motors thinks it needs several more years of development, they still aren’t for sale, and there still isn’t any independent confirmation of performance or range.
Guy Negre and team have entered the Automotive X Prize contest, planning two entries – one powered solely by compressed air, the other a compressed air/liquid fueled hybrid. Problem is, they’ve got some really stiff competition from the likes of Loremo, Tesla Motors, Aptera, Velozzi, Cornell University, and more – about 70 entries at last count! Quite frankly, considering the performance and marketablility requirements and the much better designs entered by others, they don’t stand a chance of winning. In fact, I’d be suprised if they made it past the qualifying round.
Sorry Michael, there’s no new source of energy here. Just a talented marketeer and a dream. I wouldn’t expect them to be in the US for 30 years or so.
Hi CM,
Thanks for the Automotive X Prize contest information, please keep us updated.
I suspect Guy will have some last minute snag and not be able to make it to the contest.